I'm asking to clarify are you saying that one obtains the PE with the usual 3-4 years experience, then obtains another 3-4 years of experience and takes a different test? Because in the example I gave, that doesn't work in Illinois. There's no "structural" PE, only their SE.
If the path I mention above is the intent in NY, then it begs the question as to why the proposed exam is 21(?) hours long. To me if the competent PE with suitable experience in "complex structures" is the test taker then it is easily determined in 8 hours, not the ridiculous proposed duration.
Furthermore, we need to agree as an industry what constitutes a "complex structure".
Original Message:
Sent: 03-03-2023 05:12 PM
From: Brian Falconer
Subject: Why SE Licensure?
Actually, a new PE is not as qualified as a new SE to design complex structures, because a new SE has 3 to 4 years of relevant experience designing complex structures. A new SE may also have substantially more design experience in order to have 3 to 4 years of complex structure design experience. Many will still acquire their PE first. We encourage our staff to get an SE in other states, but most of our staff takes a NY PE test first. I think that will continue to be the case. You get your PE as soon as you can, and you get your SE when you are ready to. Some of our staff even takes the CA PE, because they can take it earlier than the NY PE.
It is correct that there are current PE's which have been designing complex structures successfully for many years. They obviously have the necessary experience to continue doing this. The intent in New York, is to grandfather existing PE's with the required 3 to 4 years of experience designing complex structures without the test; so they can apply for an SE in the first cycle. After that, the test would be required of everyone.
------------------------------
Brian Falconer P.E., S.E., M.ASCE
Principal
New York NY
Original Message:
Sent: 03-03-2023 09:11 AM
From: Robert Desmarais
Subject: Why SE Licensure?
To those advocating this tiered license, there seems to be a position that certain structures require certain skills and/or epxerience that will by law allow exclusion to a vast numebr of licensed professional engineers. Let's take Illinois as an example. You need an SE to practice as a structural enginer. One obtains that license in a similar manner to other states. My point is that a newly licensed "SE" has as much skill as a newly licensed PE. It makes the "skills" argument weaker. In theory that newly minted licensed professional can now start a business, have no peer mentoring or oversight, and is deemed capable.
Regardless of the PE or SE designation and regardless of engineering dicsipline, if you don't know what you are doing you shouldn't be designing without educating yourself, without seekng peer input, and even going so far as to professionally collaborate with a peer who has the experience in the design method. I've worked with "PEs" who have designed tall buildings. They didn't have an "SE". They are no less competent in that specific complex structure design.
NSPE is clear on their disagreement of discipline-specific licensure. I also disagree wth discipline-specific licensure. Being a professional requries ethics and inegrity to the craft. It is by choice and by law an obligation to protect the health, safety, and welfare of the communities we serve. Stratifying the license doesn't improve that when in the end it relies entirely on the individual's character and adherence to our principles that wins the day.
------------------------------
Robert R Desmarais Jr, PE
President
rrd pe corp
313 West Liberty Street, Suite 101
Lancaster, PA 17603
Original Message:
Sent: 03-02-2023 06:01 PM
From: Brian Falconer
Subject: Why SE Licensure?
SE Licensure is not intended to be for all structures. There is a national standard from NCSEA, but it isn't posted on their website. If you go to the SEAONY website (SEAoNY - SE Licensure Committee), you can see the proposed SE Law for buildings in New York. We are currently working on a proposed SE Law for bridges too. The proposed New York SE Laws are similar to the national standard.
In short, designing complex structures is difficult. If you don't do it regularly, then you don't know what you don't know; therefore, in order to design complex structures, you need to have experience designing complex structures. Yes, there is a more detailed test for an SE License, but you also need your experience to be specifically relevant to designing complex structures. Anyone can take a test, but what is difficult is getting 3 or 4 years of specific relevant experience designing complex structures.
Rationally, we need PE's to design simple structures. We can't force everyone to get experience working on complex structures just to be able to design simple structures. There are not enough complex structures to go around for that. There is a one-size fits all approach to the PE which is necessary for the broad nature of practicing engineering. It only breaks down when it comes to complex structures, and unfortunately, we aren't going to demonstrate that this was a problem until there is an design earthquake or a hurricane and you really need the hospital's structure to work flawlessly.
------------------------------
Brian Falconer P.E., S.E., M.ASCE
Principal
New York NY
Original Message:
Sent: 03-01-2023 07:42 AM
From: Sarah Halsey
Subject: Why SE Licensure?
My take is that the SE is an attempt to rectify that the profession has fundamentally changed in the last 20-30 years.
I started doing structural work around 2006 and worked with engineers who had been in the field for 30 or 40 years. I was lucky that the firm I worked at had a strong mentoring program and I had the expertise of these people when I had questions. However, we were already pressured to do design without a lot of expertise on our team for a fairly complicated project because of the financial reality that a lot of people leave engineering because of too little money, too much responsibility and too many long hours. So we were left with baby engineers and the experienced engineers were spread thin.
No one, with or without a SE license can do all structures. I think the SE license is an attempt to get people to realize what they don't know and also to get better at, and familiarize themselves with more of the code.
That being said, no test will work to provide competence, there are many people who can pass tests but cannot figure out real world problems. This is why the trend towards massively large firms run by non-engineers take a toll on the structures built. No matter what is put in place legally. I have worked with engineers from those big companies, some of them are at the highest level of their field of expertise, others I would run from any building that I knew they had a part in based on some things they have said.
We are lucky that mostly the code has enough factors of safety to protect us, but I cannot count the number of times I have heard, "well, it hasn't fallen down yet." Or when I rejected a calculation because they did not include all the loads or look at the ACTUAL way something was attached. And it went to a senior engineer who also did not understand my concerns so instead of providing a calculation to demonstrate that it was not an issue would just say, "that it is not a problem."
I had an instance where the engineer was providing a shear connection for a load with moment, and they asked me where in the AISC was the calculation to show that this connection could take the moment load along with the shear...
I have had people try to put a machine slab on a sidewalk slab because, "it is strong enough," and when I said it needed a proper foundation, again the senior engineer did not seem to understand why every building needs a foundation, even an addition to an existing building.
Structural design is very complicated and needs a depth of knowledge that no test can capture. Without experience and strong mentoring by senior engineers we will have structural failures with or without a test.
------------------------------
Sarah Halsey P.E., M.ASCE
Civil Engineer III
New York NY
Original Message:
Sent: 01-26-2023 02:13 PM
From: Christian Parker
Subject: Why SE Licensure?
NCEES offers PE licensure in many practice areas, including Civil Structural. But among PE disciplines, Structural Engineering is the only one I'm aware of that has a separate, more specialized, exam option. The Licensure Committee at NCSEA reports that ten US states now have some form of practice act requiring SE Licensure. Are we heading towards universal SE licensure for practicing structural engineers? Should we be?
------------------------------
Christian Parker P.E., M.ASCE
Structural Project Engineer
Washington DC
------------------------------