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Why SE Licensure?

  • 1.  Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 01-26-2023 04:59 PM
    NCEES offers PE licensure in many practice areas, including Civil Structural.  But among PE disciplines, Structural Engineering is the only one I'm aware of that has a separate, more specialized, exam option.  The Licensure Committee at NCSEA reports that ten US states now have some form of practice act requiring SE Licensure.  Are we heading towards universal SE licensure for practicing structural engineers?  Should we be?

    ------------------------------
    Christian Parker P.E., M.ASCE
    Structural Project Engineer
    Washington DC
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 01-27-2023 10:19 AM
    As a practicing structural engineer with about 35 years of experience, and over 25 years of that experience performing forensic evaluations, I'll opine that I wish that more stringent exam and licensing requirements would be put in place. Structural engineering requires a very specialized knowledge base and skill set, and in my opinion, should not be practiced by a "generalist."

    ------------------------------
    Randal Exley P.E., M.ASCE
    Principal Engr/President
    Capstone Structural Engineering and Consulting, PC
    Wexford PA
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 01-30-2023 11:16 AM
    The design process produces an indeterminate result.  Some would say that the best designers are polymaths, in that they pull the best approach from what is available.  A polymath would operate somewhere between a generalist and specialist... knowing their own limitations.  

    The exam is designed for the specialist and the answers are determinate.  This does not mean the test is not useful in identifying compentence or quality, but rather it must be recognized that it alone does not qualify a good designer.  

    As the SE has now been available for several years, it would be interesting to see if there is any quantifiable deference in result between projects completed by an SE and those completed by a PE to see if there is any value in the additional credential.

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    Chad Morrison P.E., F.ASCE
    Professional Engineer
    Greenville RI
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 01-30-2023 02:33 PM
    Is someone that passes the structural depth section a "generalist"?

    I'm not sure how all states work, but in mine we have to list our areas of competency based on our project experience, and we can't sign/seal documents outside of our listed competencies. Just because I have my PE doesn't mean I can sign and seal a structural design.

    ------------------------------
    Heidi C. Wallace, P.E., M.ASCE
    Tulsa, OK
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  • 5.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 02-02-2023 01:52 PM

    To add to @Heidi Wallace point, I thought that someone signing a document is taking responsibility for the document's contents. If something were to happen the engineer would be liable.

    Isn't this a good incentive to only sign what you review/understand?

    True, in every field you have malpractitioners but I don't know if an additional test will help. It may even dissuade people from pursuing structural especially if you now need 7 years of experience (on top of the 3-4  years from undergrad).​​



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    Daniel Bressler EIT, A.M.ASCE
    Structural Engineer
    Brooklyn NY
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 02-03-2023 11:38 AM
    I doubt the SE license was created solely to keep people honest about what they know. Even structural engineers with good intentions, and lots of experience, apply code incorrectly.

    Also, did something change? I wasn't aware that you need 7 years of experience to get any engineering license.

    ------------------------------
    Daniel Hernandez P.E., S.E., M.ASCE
    Burns & McDonnell
    Chicago IL
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 02-06-2023 07:57 AM
    Thanks for the correction. I meant 7 years total including undergraduate. 3-4 years undergraduate + 4 years experience. 

    What then would you say is the primary purpose to the SE?

    ------------------------------
    Daniel Bressler EIT, A.M.ASCE
    Structural Engineer
    Brooklyn NY
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 02-24-2023 07:59 AM

    I forgot to reply, but…

    The SE exam prepares you specifically for structural engineering. The PE exam is a civil engineering exam. People can pass the PE exam and be fairly poor at the application of code requirements. The SE exam aims to ensure you have a baseline knowledge of basic requirements so code requirements are less likely missed or done incorrectly. Where it matters really is high seismic or high wind areas cause those are the things I more often see done incorrectly. 



    ------------------------------
    Daniel Hernandez P.E., S.E., M.ASCE
    Chicago IL
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 02-27-2023 10:54 AM

    I was 100% on board with your post until the last sentence. I do forensic inspections and expert witness work. You wouldn't believe the havoc an improperly designed designed simple residential home or addition can cause. Generally, not a loss of life, but months of legal wrangling, court costs and hassle for a homeowner, not to mention costs and life disruption for remediation. I think SE licensure is a necessary for anyone who designs structures. 



    ------------------------------
    Randal Exley P.E., M.ASCE
    Principal Engr/President
    Capstone Structural Engineering and Consulting, PC
    Wexford PA
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 02-28-2023 08:03 AM

    I don't have the data to say one way or another to say if extra licensure should be required for all structures. For that reason, I don't really want to say it should or shouldn't be a requirement. But, I think anyone with the PE should be able to handle simple structures in areas that do not have large lateral design loads. There's just nothing incredibly complicated there. Of course, there will always be mistakes because all people make mistakes, but I'd need to understand the problems before I recommended more licensure for those types of structures. 

    I will add that I previously did forensic work as well. While my sample size is very very small compared to most, only a small percentage of what I was seeing in smaller residential structures was directly related to structural engineering. Foundation items came up here and there, but a vast majority of the issues I saw were related to the building envelope and/or major weather events (hurricane, flood, tornado, etc.). Maybe some exceptions could be where an unqualified person decided to just cut structural members to route various things (collar ties for the garage opener!). That's always nice.

    For clarity, my last statement in the previous post was meant to kind of say that you can more often probably get away with mistakes in smaller, simpler structures. So if the engineer makes a mistake in the wind or seismic load, it probably matters less in areas where those loads are smaller. That doesn't make it ok, but it's just less likely anyone would ever realize a mistake was made because other design loads are possibly often sufficient to prevent structural failure.



    ------------------------------
    Daniel Hernandez P.E., S.E., M.ASCE
    Chicago IL
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 02-28-2023 11:29 AM

    SE Licensure for a simple house addition?  Well the whole purpose of the IRC, International Residential Code is that any lay person, contractor of homowner can design their own house or addition without any engineer whatsoever.  Do we now need to get rid of the IRC?  I would like to see the IRC go away as building officials all to often implement portions of it that really does not apply when doing plan review.



    ------------------------------
    John Stensgaard P.E., M.ASCE
    PRESIDENT
    S2E Consulting Engineers
    Thornton CO
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 03-02-2023 07:16 AM

    Well said sir! 



    ------------------------------
    Robert R Desmarais Jr, PE
    President
    rrd pe corp
    313 West Liberty Street, Suite 101
    Lancaster, PA 17603
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 02-28-2023 11:44 AM

    See A/E Seal on Drawings Chart in the codes below.

    Would you agree that most simple residential homes and additions are not designed by structural engineers or an architect unless it is part of some mass build funded by state or federal government or commercial development project? In my experience, the cost to hire either structural engineer or architect exceeds that most general contractors or homeowners are willing to pay when it comes to simple structures unless it is a mass build project.  Most simple residential homes and/or additions are based on plans provided to a general contractor by a designer and hopefully built according to the local or state code, which are the minimum requirements. Structural engineers and/or architects are only required when structural elements or assemblies are outside the boundaries (min and max) of the code.

    Even when plans/designs are sealed and provided on-site according to local requirements, the folks putting together the structure per the plans will only consult the plans AFTER they run into an issue doing it the way they have done it. They tend to develop work arounds until they must call a structural engineer or a code official directs them to. Otherwise, it is covered up until it is an issue. 

    There is a clause that states the code officials may override the chart.

    Chart depicting when architect or engineering seal is required.



    ------------------------------
    James Williams P.E., M.ASCE
    Principal/Owner
    POA&M Structural Engineering, PLC
    Yorktown, VA
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 02-03-2023 04:21 PM
    We had to list our area of competence in VA in the 2nd or depth section of that 8 hr PE exam. Of course, the 1st section being the "breadth" section. 
    Once had to convince a Mechanical engineering PE that just because you can use the structural analysis software and get an answer does not mean you should be designing structures.

    ------------------------------
    James Williams P.E., M.ASCE
    Principal/Owner
    POA&M Structural Engineering, PLC
    Yorktown, VA
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 02-28-2023 10:06 AM

    As a side question, I'm curious how deep the SE exam goes into the detailing of wood framed structures for resistance to lateral loads? I recently watched an APA video on lateral loads as part of some committee work and was was blown away by the level of detail required to build a proper and resilient residential dwelling. 



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    Mitch Winkler P.E., M.ASCE
    Houston, TX
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  • 16.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 02-28-2023 11:30 AM

    Mitch, 

    The key word is build. In my professional opinion, given every material has its own or multiple specifications and/or design manuals. There are not enough hours in a single exam to focus on wood (engineered wood, timber, plywood, grading of lumber, diaphragms, blocking, fasteners, glues, fire or whatever else is in NDS) let alone lateral loads. Wood is one of the most complex materials one can design with. 

    Gets us back to understanding what information is require, where to locate it, and the proper application and learning curves. There will always be learning curves. 



    ------------------------------
    James Williams P.E., M.ASCE
    Principal/Owner
    POA&M Structural Engineering, PLC
    Yorktown, VA
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 02-28-2023 02:51 PM

    I guess this might depend on what your definition of "deep" is. There is an expectation that you can detail any connection, for any material. This will include providing all necessary variables like bolt/nail spacing, quantity, sizes (bolts... plates...), etc., etc. So to put it simply, you should know how to detail anything for wood. Connections as well as detailing for shear walls and diaphragms. You will possibly need to also draw these details by hand (pre CBT). However, there's only so much you can be asked in 16 hours. BUT, if you walk into the exam not knowing how to do that at all, it can cost you.



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    Daniel Hernandez P.E., S.E., M.ASCE
    Chicago IL
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  • 18.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 02-28-2023 11:45 AM

    The whole discussion is quite interesting. As someone that practiced structural engineering for years prior to obtaining PE; obtained PE prior to the advent of the SE designation; took the depth portion of the civil engineering entitled "Structural"; and considered "Model Law" by NCEES. 

    Another distinguishing designation? "Model Law", a designation I was unfamiliar until recently resorting to the extensive and exhaustive documentation of PE experience dating back to my cooperative education in college. When busy working and raising a family, it is challenging to keep up with all the changes. This designation, too, has become a means of separation. Are these designations a means of correcting action taken by governing bodies?

     



    ------------------------------
    James Williams P.E., M.ASCE
    Principal/Owner
    POA&M Structural Engineering, PLC
    Yorktown, VA
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 02-03-2023 09:05 AM
    I'm agree with you.
    Also, with "structural" software development, anyone can "design" structures. 

    Victor Escalante

    ------------------------------
    Victor Escalante-Cervera M.ASCE
    Project Manager
    Epsa Labco, Ingenieros Consultores
    Santo Domingo
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 02-03-2023 04:51 PM
    This is very dangerous to believe and totally not true.

    ------------------------------
    Daniel Hernandez P.E., S.E., M.ASCE
    Burns & McDonnell
    Chicago IL
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 01-27-2023 10:19 AM
    Will look forward to this discussion.........I would not expect anything universal any time soon as states approach to licensure varies so drastically.  It is a recognition of the importance and tie to life-safety of structural design for large structures.  As a non-SE doing structural work, I encourage more states to go that way and further raise the bar for our profession.

    Brad Hughes, PE

    WI Team Leader / Principal

    Shive-Hattery



    ------------------------------
    Bradley Hughes P.E., M.ASCE
    WI Team Leader
    Shive-Hattery
    Madison WI
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 01-27-2023 05:32 PM
    I don't believe that a separate SE license should be required for civil engineers who want to practice structural engineering, although I do think that it should be dependent upon the type of structural engineering each person wants to practice.

    For government buildings and high rises I think that this should be the requirement, but not for residential.
    I work strictly in residential and I think that the requirement to have a SE license it too strict. Sometimes less is more. 
    Residential versus commercial high rise engineering is a separate world. There probably is some overlapping knowledge and practices that each share, but residential loads are so much less then high rise and commercial. 

    If this occurs, I can see that the cost of building would drastically increase in the residential world. Maybe a revision to the testing process for civils who want to practice residential structural would be a better way to go.

    ------------------------------
    Erik Gibbs P.E., M.ASCE
    South County Engineering
    San Juan Capistrano CA
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 01-30-2023 01:49 PM
    Erik,

    Thanks for sharing your perspective.  I've worked on small and large buildings in many different sectors and personally, I find residential work quite challenging.  New commercial buildings go up with the understanding that there will be structure and it will impose certain constraints on program and circulation, whereas in residential work, the prompt is to "make it work" with a floor plan that has not considered structure at all.  Small projects have much of the complexity of any design, on a considerably smaller fee.  Experience in existing buildings and residential work informs my judgment on all projects, large and small.

    There may be a hidden cost to a two-tier system: pushing engineers into one of two pigeon holes erodes the benefits of diverse project experience.  I find IRC cumbersome to use, but one advantage is that it walks you through systems and requirements in an organized manner that does more to educate a young engineer on load path than most undergrad courses.  I see what we could gain by raising the bar for significant structures, but what would we lose?

    ------------------------------
    Christian Parker P.E., M.ASCE
    Structural Project Engineer
    Washington DC
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 01-31-2023 07:53 AM
    Thank you for putting this so articulately.

    ------------------------------
    Sarah Halsey P.E., M.ASCE
    Civil Engineer III
    New York NY
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 01-28-2023 03:35 PM
    SE should be required for significant structures, I'm quite happy with the limits my home state of WA place on the practice of structural engineering by engineers who may only hold a Civil license.  Any structure for Hazardous, Essential, Emergency, or Critical infrastructure, as well as any structure over 100 ft above grade, buildings of 5 stories or more, or where more than 300 people could congregate in one area would require an SE.

    ------------------------------
    Mark Myers, P.E., M.ASCE
    Gig Harbor, WA
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  • 26.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 01-30-2023 11:33 AM
    I have no issue for a SE requirement for complex structures, those more than 5 stories and those in high seismic zones, but the boundaries should be narrow for two reasons. Most structures are straightforward in their design, not requiring an SE license to ensure safety and serviceability. Secondly, passing the SE exam is extremely difficult, requiring expertise in design of all types of structures using many types of materials. With a current passing rate of less than 40%, the NCEES is planning on making the exam even more difficult, moving from a 2 day exam to 4 and increasing the cost to $1400. The concern is that fewer applicants will seek to take the exam and lead to a shortage of qualified engineers, especially if states require licensure for simple structures.

    ------------------------------
    David Kennicutt P.E., M.ASCE
    Senior Project Manager
    Binghamton NY
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 01-30-2023 02:33 PM
    You comment lines up with what I was reading recently on the topic: https://www.structuremag.org/?p=21592

    I'm not a structural engineer, but I work closely with structural engineers. I agree with your assessment that certain higher-risk structures with regard to public safety may warrant an additional and/or more specific license/certification. I don't see any evidence that PEs specializing in structural engineering are underqualified to design most structures. I also think that there are people that are highly intelligent, excellent test takers, and so arrogant that they are still a risk to the public no matter what license they have because they don't follow proper peer-review and QC practices. 

    My question to NCEES would be: With a shortage in the industry and no apparent widespread failures by PEs that would be eliminated by a more rigorous SE, is it really worth it?


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    Heidi C. Wallace, P.E., M.ASCE
    Tulsa, OK
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 03-02-2023 07:16 AM

    I disagree across the board here that an additional license level is required for certain structures. It's an issue of competence. License law is clear that you must not practice outside your competence. I have 35 years of experience in all types of structures and construction engineering. I've designed in very high seismic and many structures along the east coast in the high wind zones. I've always engaged another PE with more experience than I as a design partner or peer reviewer. Having a PE vs SE isn't a guarantee of a better competence. In a response to this discussion a fellow notes that errors in applying code loads for seismic and high wind have been observed. I'm more an advocate of peer reviews for threshold limits. That will serve us better 



    ------------------------------
    Robert R Desmarais Jr, PE
    President
    rrd pe corp
    313 West Liberty Street, Suite 101
    Lancaster, PA 17603
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 03-02-2023 12:07 PM

    The problem is, people don't know what they don't know.



    ------------------------------
    Randal Exley P.E., M.ASCE
    Principal Engr/President
    Capstone Structural Engineering and Consulting, PC
    Wexford PA
    ------------------------------



  • 30.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 03-02-2023 09:03 PM

    Randal, you're exactly right. Code can be tough and I see people who just do it wrong without thinking they are. To add to your statement, there's another common saying, "The easiest person to fool is yourself." So, when we're talking about eliminating examination, this determination becomes self-governed. And, if competence would be self-determined and based on XX years of experience without an exam, why have the PE exam either? XX years of experience can be considered ok to do the job without any exam at all. Never mind, this approach doesn't even guarantee that the senior engineers/peer reviewers/mentors themselves are competent. Those engineers could be passing along poor advice and teaching incorrect procedures to junior members...

    No test is perfect to prove everything, but the better, safer solution is a combination of testing with experience. It looks to eliminate bias as much as one realistically can. It's not to say PEs can't do it. There are a ton of PEs who are experts in the field and the best of the best. I'm sure there are also lackluster SEs. But at the end of the day, it's just an exam. If the competence is there, I don't see the difficulty in just taking and passing the test.



    ------------------------------
    Daniel Hernandez P.E., S.E., M.ASCE
    Chicago IL
    ------------------------------



  • 31.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 03-02-2023 07:16 AM

    I agree! I've stated earlier that I believe peer review for certain structures is better than a stratified license. I can successfully design a firehouse (Risk Cat 4) as a PE as well as an SE. It's a matter of competence. In the instance of the firehouse, the equipment bays are pre-engineered metal building. I'm not concerned the manufacturer cannot perform. As the EoR I ensured the performance requirements were clearly established and my review of their design indicates suitable conformance. 



    ------------------------------
    Robert R Desmarais Jr, PE
    President
    rrd pe corp
    313 West Liberty Street, Suite 101
    Lancaster, PA 17603
    ------------------------------



  • 32.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 01-30-2023 11:34 AM
    I think residential should either have a PE in certain states or strong prescriptive codes.  Walking around Seattle I see a lot of new construction that includes a garage either on the ground floor or in the basement, from the street that story often appears to be a soft story--less windows on the first floor and large openings for the cars with minimal structure.  There could be hidden structure and calcs to back up the design, but I have seen engineers at very prestigious firms miss an entire direction of force when designing facades and other parts of structures.

    Also, I don't think any test is a good measure of ability.  I have met people with PEs that should not design a one car garage in a field.  There is a lot of knowledge required to be a good structural engineer that can only be gotten on the job with a mentor that has enough time to review the work of the new engineer.  I think experience, motivation and understanding are more important than a test and that DOBs need to have better review of submitted plans and ongoing construction.

    Regarding ongoing construction, I have seen contractors pressure on site inspectors to accept work that they deem unsatisfactory by threatening to walk off the job or completing work in a way that the on site inspector cannot truly determine if the work was done properly.  The inspector may write a report , but that report may also be buried or ignored.

    ------------------------------
    Sarah Halsey P.E., M.ASCE
    Civil Engineer III
    New York NY
    ------------------------------



  • 33.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 01-30-2023 12:31 PM
    As a complementary question, what is the right bar to pass to become an SE? I have read that the National Council of Examiners for Engineering and Surveying (NCEES) intends to transition the SE Exam to a computer-based test starting in 2024. Furthermore, this will be a four-section exam of 21 hours in length, replacing the current two-section, 16-hour exam. As mentioned in earlier Collaborate posts on licensing, passing an exam is a minimum bar. Ultimately, it is real-life outcomes that matter. I think the NCEES would be hard-pressed to show that the increased hours will lead to better outcomes. It would be great to hear from SE's as part of this post as to their views on how the exam keeps the public safe and protects property and whether NCEES have the minimum bar set too high or low.

    ------------------------------
    Mitch Winkler P.E., M.ASCE
    Houston, TX
    ------------------------------



  • 34.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 02-05-2023 01:32 PM
    Hi Mitch, @Heidi Wallace shared this interesting link with us: https://www.structuremag.org/?p=21592

    Regards,

    AG​

    ------------------------------
    Andres Guzman D.Eng., MEng, Ing., M.ASCE
    Associate Professor
    UNIVERSIDAD DEL NORTE
    Barranquilla
    ------------------------------



  • 35.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 01-30-2023 02:33 PM
    Lots of great responses on this.  One aspect that I haven't heard opinions on yet is the qualifications for other disciplines within Civil Engineering.  If we consider flood damage a hydrologic failure, then hydrology is responsible for more loss of property and life than all structural hazards combined.  This is a terrible example, but the point remains that other engineering disciplines have life safety implications.  I recently learned that nuclear engineering doesn't even require a PE.  If structural is complex and important enough for a now 21-hour exam, why not other disciplines?

    Also, this chain is building focused, but does anyone know the state of practice for bridge engineers with regard to SE licensure?  All bridges are significant structures as far as I'm concerned.  If you ever catch me calling for a 72" plate girder, it had better be transferring more than a few stories.

    ------------------------------
    Christian Parker P.E., M.ASCE
    Structural Project Engineer
    Washington DC
    ------------------------------



  • 36.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 01-30-2023 04:48 PM
    I spent most of my career designing bridges. Although the members are significantly large, it's because of the loads they carry and the span lengths involved. Most are pretty simple structures as structures go. There is no SE requirement in NY for bridge design, but being a public works project it is doubtful you would be selected to design a signature structure without significant documented experience for the bridge type envisioned. 
    Regarding the need for such an intense (e.g. 21 hour) exam for bridge engineering, this should be limited to signature structures only (e.g. thousand foot spans requiring cable stay, suspension type, etc.). To require such an exam for the design of the thousands of simple span and medium span continuous structures would be, in my opinion, extreme overreach. 
    On a related subject, I'm a big proponent of simplifying codes for simple structures, particularly for bridges. Bridges that have lasted well beyond their design lives were designed using a code book that you could almost fit in your pocket, compared to now where you need an entire bookshelf. A one-size-fits-all approach to building/bridge codes that applies to all structures, no matter how complex, seems nonsensical to me.

    ------------------------------
    David Kennicutt, PE (NY), M.ASCE
    ------------------------------



  • 37.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 01-30-2023 10:37 PM

    Interesting topic. I have a couple comments. 

    • I don't believe we'd ever have universal SE licensure. 
    • I am not for change for the sake of change. Any changes to the way things are now should really be justified by something… for cause? Statistics? Something. 
    • If changes are necessary, I see no problem with limiting the types of structures where an SE is required. Some states already do this. 
    • I am not particularly worried about shortages of engineers. I know plenty of SEs. If a shortage did come, supply and demand will sort it all out. I welcome some cost correction actually. I think we as engineers have cut down the cost of our services too significantly in competition with each other… but that's another discussion for another day. 


    ------------------------------
    Daniel Hernandez P.E., S.E., M.ASCE
    Burns & McDonnell
    Chicago IL
    ------------------------------



  • 38.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 02-03-2023 03:22 PM
    Looking forward to the discussion on "cost of services". I would love to develop a series of cost similar to what RS Means develops. 

    As someone over the age of Tom Brady, we often lose track of true service value and we are often reluctant to discuss these matters. Note: We were shocked discovering that my grandmother had been charging the same fee for house cleaning services 45-50 years later. Discussion of a person's income was not open for review. 

    I look forward to the discussion.

    ------------------------------
    James Williams P.E., M.ASCE
    Principal/Owner
    POA&M Structural Engineering, PLC
    Yorktown, VA
    ------------------------------



  • 39.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 01-31-2023 03:40 PM
    Great discussion.

    My initial thoughts when S.E. licensure was introduced were that they do not trust licensed PEs to govern themselves to practice solely in their areas of competence. I have to ask if SEs practice the same self-governance?

    As someone that considers themselves a structural engineer, I have designed, analyzed, inspected and assessed a variety of structures (i.e., structure on naval vessels, warehouse storage racks, wharf facilities, wind tunnel structure, maintenance & support fixtures, commercial & residential structural elements, etc.) over the past many many moons. The visible evidence of a "lack of competence" is either caught during the design process or, unfortunately, following forensic investigations.

    Self-governance vs. Employment
    Self-governance is pretty straight-forward when you are self-employed. Amazing, there are still a lot of folks that do not understand what a structural engineer is or what structural engineering entails. When you work for others, the general practitioners (w/structural specialty) are not the individuals with the challenges. Heck, when work is really slow, my wife starts pulling up any and all job ads for licensed engineers with "Civil" or "Structure" in the description. I have to explain not having x years of experience in that area. In the prep months leading up to one project, I spent each multi-discipline meeting leading with the statement "For the record, I am a structural engineer not a mechanical ..." to a project manager that thought all FEA was the same and all I needed encouragement and confidence. 

    Levels within Levels
    There are even levels of competence within the area of structural engineering based on the type of structure, boundary conditions, and even the many materials. One can find specialty levels within each structural type - Bridges, highways, cranes, dams, wharfs, & buildings. Seismic, high winds, shock and blast. The number of specifications associated with the materials (steel, cold-formed steel, concrete, masonry, timber/wood, etc.) are staggering. Individuals specialize within these areas. How many projects before you are judged to be truly competent? Is competence solely a matter of understanding the process by which to analyze, design, inspect & assess or is the competence/devil in the details"? SE Masonry, SE Bridges-Steel, SE Bridges-Wood, SE Bridges Seismic Concrete. Again, do SEs practice the same self-governance? Do you have SE generalist?

    Ease of Structural Modeling 
    We face an abundance of challenges with the ease at which 3-D models can be built. Everyone that can build a 3-D model believes they understand structural analyses, but are faced with what they "don't" know. The challenges associated with the applicable material properties, boundary conditions and the interpretation of the data. In addition to understanding specification and code requirements. Of course, the most interesting of all is comprehending the limitations and disclaimers of these structural analysis programs. 

    Relieving the External Pressure
    There are many external pressures that come with being a licensed engineer and not all are technical. Who knows. Being able to say the words, "I'm not a licensed structural engineer" could come in handy.

    ------------------------------
    James Williams P.E., M.ASCE
    Principal/Owner
    POA&M Structural Engineering, PLC
    Yorktown, VA
    ------------------------------



  • 40.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 01-31-2023 06:50 PM
    Any person is capable of falling to whatever factors there are that may lead them to practice outside their areas of competence, and an SE is no different. But with that said, I would think most SEs would behave the same as any PE and be honest when something is outside their area of expertise. I've certainly stated when I was uncomfortable being the responsible structural engineer on a scope of work. I'd like to believe every engineer is equally honest when it comes to this.

    ------------------------------
    Daniel Hernandez P.E., S.E., M.ASCE
    Burns & McDonnell
    Chicago IL
    ------------------------------



  • 41.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 02-03-2023 04:20 PM
    I agree wholeheartedly. With the exception of licensure designation, I would not expect there to be a difference in behavior. 

    If I were the general public, the ability to identify at first glance that the individual is licensed as a structural engineer is a plus. 

    Of course, it can work both ways. The public may consider it somewhat questionable has to why someone that has been a practicing licensed structural engineer for generations is "just" a PE and does not carry the SE designation. In my experience, for the most part, the general public struggle with comprehending what we do until their situation becomes urgent or an unfortunate event is highly publicized.

    ------------------------------
    James Williams P.E., M.ASCE
    Principal/Owner
    POA&M Structural Engineering, PLC
    Yorktown, VA
    ------------------------------



  • 42.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 01-31-2023 06:50 PM
    I think your observations and questions are spot on. It really comes down to ethics.

    ------------------------------
    Mitch Winkler P.E., M.ASCE
    Houston, TX
    ------------------------------



  • 43.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 03-01-2023 08:15 AM

    My take is that the SE is an attempt to rectify that the profession has fundamentally changed in the last 20-30 years.

    I started doing structural work around 2006 and worked with engineers who had been in the field for 30 or 40 years.  I was lucky that the firm I worked at had a strong mentoring program and I had the expertise of these people when I had questions.  However, we were already pressured to do design without a lot of expertise on our team for a fairly complicated project because of the financial reality that a lot of people leave engineering because of too little money, too much responsibility and too many long hours.  So we were left with baby engineers and the experienced engineers were spread thin.

    No one, with or without a SE license can do all structures.  I think the SE license is an attempt to get people to realize what they don't know and also to get better at, and familiarize themselves with more of the code.  

    That being said, no test will work to provide competence, there are many people who can pass tests but cannot figure out real world problems.  This is why the trend towards massively large firms run by non-engineers take a toll on the structures built.  No matter what is put in place legally.  I have worked with engineers from those big companies, some of them are at the highest level of their field of expertise, others I would run from any building that I knew they had a part in based on some things they have said.  

    We are lucky that mostly the code has enough factors of safety to protect us, but I cannot count the number of times I have heard, "well, it hasn't fallen down yet."  Or when I rejected a calculation because they did not include all the loads or look at the ACTUAL way something was attached.  And it went to a senior engineer who also did not understand my concerns so instead of providing a calculation to demonstrate that it was not an issue would just say, "that it is not a problem."

    I had an instance where the engineer was providing a shear connection for a load with moment, and they asked me where in the AISC was the calculation to show that this connection could take the moment load along with the shear...

    I have had people try to put a machine slab on a sidewalk slab because, "it is strong enough," and when I said it needed a proper foundation, again the senior engineer did not seem to understand why every building needs a foundation, even an addition to an existing building.

    Structural design is very complicated and needs a depth of knowledge that no test can capture.  Without experience and strong mentoring by senior engineers we will have structural failures with or without a test.



    ------------------------------
    Sarah Halsey P.E., M.ASCE
    Civil Engineer III
    New York NY
    ------------------------------



  • 44.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 03-02-2023 09:04 PM

    SE Licensure is not intended to be for all structures.  There is a national standard from NCSEA, but it isn't posted on their website.  If you go to the SEAONY website (SEAoNY - SE Licensure Committee), you can see the proposed SE Law for buildings in New York.  We are currently working on a proposed SE Law for bridges too.  The proposed New York SE Laws are similar to the national standard.  

    In short, designing complex structures is difficult.  If you don't do it regularly, then you don't know what you don't know; therefore, in order to design complex structures, you need to have experience designing complex structures.  Yes, there is a more detailed test for an SE License, but you also need your experience to be specifically relevant to designing complex structures.   Anyone can take a test, but what is difficult is getting 3 or 4 years of specific relevant experience designing complex structures.     

    Rationally, we need PE's to design simple structures.  We can't force everyone to get experience working on complex structures just to be able to design simple structures.  There are not enough complex structures to go around for that.  There is a one-size fits all approach to the PE which is necessary for the broad nature of practicing engineering.  It only breaks down when it comes to complex structures, and unfortunately, we aren't going to demonstrate that this was a problem until there is an design earthquake or a hurricane and you really need the hospital's structure to work flawlessly.  



    ------------------------------
    Brian Falconer P.E., S.E., M.ASCE
    Principal
    New York NY
    ------------------------------



  • 45.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 03-03-2023 12:28 PM

    To those advocating this tiered license, there seems to be a position that certain structures require certain skills and/or epxerience that will by law allow exclusion to a vast numebr of licensed professional engineers.  Let's take Illinois as an example.  You need an SE to practice as a structural enginer.  One obtains that license in a similar manner to other states.  My point is that a newly licensed "SE" has as much skill as a newly licensed PE.  It makes the "skills" argument weaker.  In theory that newly minted licensed professional can now start a business, have no peer mentoring or oversight, and is deemed capable.

    Regardless of the PE or SE designation and regardless of engineering dicsipline, if you don't know what you are doing you shouldn't be designing without educating yourself, without seekng peer input, and even going so far as to professionally collaborate with a peer who has the experience in the design method.  I've worked with "PEs" who have designed tall buildings.  They didn't have an "SE".  They are no less competent in that specific complex structure design.

    NSPE is clear on their disagreement of discipline-specific licensure.  I also disagree wth discipline-specific licensure.  Being a professional requries ethics and inegrity to the craft.  It is by choice and by law an obligation to protect the health, safety, and welfare of the communities we serve.  Stratifying the  license doesn't improve that when in the end it relies entirely on the individual's character and adherence to our principles that wins the day.



    ------------------------------
    Robert R Desmarais Jr, PE
    President
    rrd pe corp
    313 West Liberty Street, Suite 101
    Lancaster, PA 17603
    ------------------------------



  • 46.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 03-03-2023 10:40 PM

    Actually, a new PE is not as qualified as a new SE to design complex structures, because a new SE has 3 to 4 years of relevant experience designing complex structures.  A new SE may also have substantially more design experience in order to have 3 to 4 years of complex structure design experience.   Many will still acquire their PE first.  We encourage our staff to get an SE in other states, but most of our staff takes a NY PE test first.  I think that will continue to be the case.  You get your PE as soon as you can, and you get your SE when you are ready to.  Some of our staff even takes the CA PE, because they can take it earlier than the NY PE. 

    It is correct that there are current PE's which have been designing complex structures successfully for many years.  They obviously have the necessary experience to continue doing this.  The intent in New York, is to grandfather existing PE's with the required 3 to 4 years of experience designing complex structures without the test; so they can apply for an SE in the first cycle.  After that, the test would be required of everyone.  



    ------------------------------
    Brian Falconer P.E., S.E., M.ASCE
    Principal
    New York NY
    ------------------------------



  • 47.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 03-05-2023 11:29 AM

    I'm asking to clarify are you saying that one obtains the PE with the usual 3-4 years experience, then obtains another 3-4 years of experience and takes a different test? Because in the example I gave, that doesn't work in Illinois. There's no "structural" PE, only their SE.

    If the path I mention above is the intent in NY, then it begs the question as to why the proposed exam is 21(?) hours long. To me if the competent PE with suitable experience in "complex structures" is the test taker then it is easily determined in 8 hours, not the ridiculous proposed duration.

    Furthermore, we need to agree as an industry what constitutes a "complex structure". 



    ------------------------------
    Robert R Desmarais Jr, PE
    President
    rrd pe corp
    313 West Liberty Street, Suite 101
    Lancaster, PA 17603
    ------------------------------



  • 48.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 03-03-2023 10:41 PM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 03-06-2023 08:03 AM

    Interestingly, the NSPE takes the position that licensure as a professional engineer must be the only legal designation required for the practice of engineering, while others, e.g., SEI, call for SE-specific licensing. I don't have a dog in the hunt here, but I would feel a lot better about the requirement for SE licensure if the problem we were trying to solve was more compelling, and I felt the entire range of options was intentionally considered and the decision process was transparent. Calling for licensure so the profession can be on par with other professions does not cut it for me. It's too soft. If the problem is one of too many structural failures or near misses, SE licensure is just one of the tools in the toolkit to mitigate. If the problem is engineers operating out of the area of one's competence – including delving into structural systems or loading mechanisms where they have little or no experience – this is a strong ethical breach. Here, are the State engineering boards taking a tough enough stance on the engineers AND their employers? My experience from managing personal safety is that the only way to stop rule breakers is to impose a zero-tolerance policy with strong consequences for non-compliance. I also wonder if SE licensure contributes to the race to the bottom for engineering fees as it places the onus for competence on employees, not employers. Less than scrupulous employers can point to their employees having SE licenses as part of their CV and, in turn, can cut costs by eliminating more seasoned employees that traditionally would have provided mentorship.



    ------------------------------
    Mitch Winkler P.E., M.ASCE
    Houston, TX
    ------------------------------



  • 49.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 03-05-2023 11:30 AM

    Excellent topic. I have read this entire thread so far. For reference, I am a structural PE licensed in Ohio, Indiana, and Maryland. I intend to take the SE - just need the workload to come down a bit, ha.

    I believe this topic boils down to stability and stiffness. The lateral portion of the SE, as indicated by pass rates, is REQUIRING every individual that passes that exam to gain a base level of competency in understanding stability. The specifics of applying these principles to various types of complex structures must of course be learned through practice, but competency in applying fundamental engineering concepts is screened by the licensure. Many, many practicing PE's understand these concepts well and are properly designing for the critical lateral forces in their area. These PE's will pass the SE exam and life goes on. The larger than ideal group of PE's practicing structural engineering without a strong understanding of stability will not pass those tests. I would be curious how many of the 83% of first time takers that fail the lateral exam are currently designing structures without a thorough understanding of what they do not know and what they are not checking. Others have mentioned that safety factors built into codes and standards are likely responsible for preventing failures due to structural errors. Undoubtedly this is part of the intent of safety factors (we are all human) but we should strive to reduce these occurrences as much as possible

    Having said that I lament that this licensure would ultimately reduce the number of engineers available to complete certain work. For states that do require an SE, tiered licensure requirements is the only option. For instance, I complete contractor support on a wide ranges of construction applications throughout the mid-west: in Illinois designing an 8' sheet pile wall for a contractor would technically require an SE license due to the extremely general language as to what work requires an SE (basically any time you are evaluating stresses in a structural component). As a licensed PE with only structural design experience I do not even qualify for the normal PE licensure in Illinois based on how the legislature is written. This is absurd and hurts both the engineering and construction industries alike. 



    ------------------------------
    Kyle Layton P.E., M.ASCE
    Staff Engineer
    North Ridgeville OH
    ------------------------------



  • 50.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 03-05-2023 09:52 PM

    I have found the discussion extremely interesting.  A couple of thoughts 

    !. Clients  look at qualifications based on the lowest common denominator to compensate. for work done.  Having the designation SE raises the lowest denominator

    2. SE designation is a regulators way of separating out skill sets,  so a PE may well have the same getter set of skills and experience,

    3  Engineers who have taken the time to obtain an SE designation have  likely shown greater interest and effort in the discipline than those who have not.

    4  (Significant) Structures that require special expertise  are not as obvious as regulators present.  For example,  one of the most complex and challenging structures I have designed is a wood foundation.  You have the lateral soil pressure from a flexable foundation wall, combined with a nonlinear second order analysis of wood, the wall acting in composite action  with wood sheathing and wall studs and finally clients who think this is propblem is straight forward so they can ask for unreasonable configurations.  



    ------------------------------
    David Thompson P.E., M.ASCE
    Principal
    KTA Structural Engineers Ltd.
    Calgary AB
    ------------------------------



  • 51.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 04-18-2023 10:23 AM

    I'm intrigued by this conversation. In Florida the discussion for an SE license has been going on for a decade. The current plan/proposal is that anyone with a PE can seal a structural drawing. Anything that falls into the classification of a Threshold Building per Florida statutes would require an SE license. This would include buildings 3 stories or higher, or greater than 50ft, assembly areas greater then 5,000 sq ft, or an occupancy greater than 500 people. I think this aligns with others comments of drawing a line where the greater license would be required. 

    Personally, I fall back in the statute that one is only supposed to seal a job in his/her area
    of expertise. If that includes small buildings then it should be adhered to. I have no issue with the proposed requirement to insure competence for larger buildings. It's still a bear of an exam to pass, but it shows commitment to the trade and distinguishes one from the run of the mill structural engineer performing smaller scale designs. 



    ------------------------------
    Nathan Morrow P.E., M.ASCE
    Associate/Senior Project Manager
    Longwood FL
    ------------------------------



  • 52.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 04-19-2023 11:01 AM

    I think the SE is a noble thought, but unnecessary.  Engineers stay in their wheelhouse or risk losing sleep and getting sued to oblivion.  I would rather investments be made to clarify the confusion in the public as to the designation 'Professional Engineer' versus the proliferation of the title 'engineer'.  I've even been referred to as an architect.  Adding another alphabet soup at the end of our names becomes white noise.  Promote the earned title 'Professional Engineer' and emphasize the Ethics we all share.  There is enough work for everyone to pick and chose the assignments that suit their comfort level.



    ------------------------------
    Eric Cowley P.E., M.ASCE
    President
    Charlton NY
    ------------------------------



  • 53.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 04-20-2023 08:06 AM

    Thank you. I agree. A recent response suggested threshold buildings as a dividing line. I disagree. 1st, not all states have "threshold" regulations. 2nd, I design multi story resident using cold formed steel panels over four stories which invokes threshold in threshold limits in two states in which I'm a PE. I am certainly competent enough to design these buildings. The SE requirement isn't needed.



    ------------------------------
    Robert R Desmarais Jr, PE
    President
    rrd pe corp
    313 West Liberty Street, Suite 101
    Lancaster, PA 17603
    ------------------------------



  • 54.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 04-21-2023 11:11 AM

    Each state can be different, but typically in the first cycle, if you are already licensed in a state, and you already have 3 years of experience designing threshold buildings, then you just submit your experience with your application and you are grandfathered. The intent is not to disenfranchise PE's already designing threshold structures.  Grandfathering would apply to Mr. Desmarais's situation.  

    Generally, states that already require an SE License, for instance Nevada, will require a PE from another state to submit their experience and to pass the SE exam to get an SE License in their jurisdiction.     

    I also think that few engineers would knowingly do something out of their wheelhouse, but I can tell you from performing peer reviews, that more often engineers don't know the limits of their wheelhouse.  



    ------------------------------
    Brian Falconer P.E., S.E., M.ASCE
    Principal
    New York NY
    ------------------------------



  • 55.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 04-21-2023 11:11 AM

    As some have said, the distinction is more about connecting the customer with the right designer. It also concerns the regulating authority's ability to ensure the right people are on the right jobs.

    "Sir, before I can give you a permit you need this stamped by a structural engineer"
    "A structural engineer? I know a mechanical engineer, will that do?"
    "No, A structural engineer"

    Do I think the designation it should be mandated by government? No, there is enough people working in overlapped areas of disciplines where that could cause problems. But an architect and owner developing a high rise knows he/she needs a structural engineer to make this work, and with that designation, they know where to look (but guess what, if they are even just considering developing a high rise, they already have a short list of engineers). 



    ------------------------------
    Jeffrey Walkley P.E., S.E., M.ASCE
    Vice President
    Michael J Walkley, PA
    Towson MD
    ------------------------------



  • 56.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 04-21-2023 11:12 AM

    As a practicing SE I am strongly in favor of more states adopting SE licensure.  That said I do believe that there should be a tiered approach to where the SE is only required when there is a significant risk to life safety.  Structures like homes, low-rise commercial and similar designs can be done by a PE.  
    As we saw in the Hard Rock collapse in New Orleans and the pedestrian bridge collapse in Miami we should be pushing for high standards and accountability in our profession.  In structural engineering if engineers mess up people can and have died from it.  
    The structural PE exam is not much more than an in depth version of the FE and does not compare to the SE exams the the proficiency required to pass the PE and SE exams are not really comparable.

    Justin Berg P.E. S.E
    Senior Structural Engineer
    West Jordan, UT



    ------------------------------
    Justin Berg P.E., M.ASCE
    Facilities Structural Engineer
    The Boeing Company
    Seattle WA
    ------------------------------



  • 57.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 04-21-2023 11:32 PM

    That last sentence is a doozy. I am unfamiliar with what constitutes the FE and PE exams these days. I took the E.I.T and the PE many moons prior to the creation of the SE designation. It sounds like the FE has been spiced up and the depth section of the PE for structures has been watered down.

    How far back are you throwing that rock (LOL)?

    I would love to hear from the boards governing the exams as to the changes over the years. This is an interesting discussion. 



    ------------------------------
    James Williams P.E., M.ASCE
    Principal/Owner
    POA&M Structural Engineering, PLC
    Yorktown, VA
    ------------------------------



  • 58.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 04-25-2023 10:23 AM

    James,
    EIT is the title you receive after passing the Fundamentals Exam (FE). Years ago, the title was EI but that was before my time. I believe Justin was attempting to compare the Civil Structural PE as an extension of the FE and saying there is no comparison to the SE.
    If I'm not mistaken the SE designation was in place as far back at '86 when Illinois required at separation for structural engineers from other engineering fields.
    My opinion on the subject is the SE should be a tiered title similar to what Justin mentioned. But I also believe the exams (all of them) are somewhat watered down with academic questions now and why so my EIT's take it immediately after college. It's easier to answer those type questions when you've so recently been acclimated to them. Real world questions are more difficult without the accompanying experience BUT also harder to write as you have to make sure its obvious enough all seasoned engineers come up with the same answer. I am still a believer that making the jr engineer get his 4 years of experience prior to taking the exam will make him a better engineer.



    ------------------------------
    Nathan Smith P.E., M.ASCE
    Engineer
    Greensboro NC
    ------------------------------



  • 59.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 04-25-2023 01:57 PM

    The title you can get after passing the FE differs from state to state. In Oklahoma, it is EI. In Texas, it is EIT. From my understanding, the name changes based on the state boards but not much else does.

    I don't think when someone takes the exam makes any difference in the quality of engineer they are down the road. Either way, they have passed the exam and had the required experience before licensure. Throughout someone's career, I don't think a difference of 4 or fewer years of exam date makes an impact in the quality of the engineer

    I would not support removing the experience requirement before getting a PE, but I don't see any reason the test needs to be taken at that same time. With the way the exams are written, the exam tests straightforward engineering and code knowledge/usage. The experience requirement and associated documentation demonstrate advancement in using and communicating that engineering theory in real-world practice.



    ------------------------------
    Heidi C. Wallace, P.E., M.ASCE
    Tulsa, OK
    ------------------------------



  • 60.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 04-26-2023 08:05 AM

    Nathan, 
    I took the exam in college ('88) and it was called the EIT exam. In fact, it was mandatory that engineering students take the exam at our college of engineering. You did not have to pass, but students had to at least go place their names on the attendance sheet. The fundamental exam that I took was not in the vicinity of the PE exam and definitely not the structural depth section.  



    ------------------------------
    James Williams P.E., M.ASCE
    Principal/Owner
    POA&M Structural Engineering, PLC
    Yorktown, VA
    ------------------------------



  • 61.  RE: Why SE Licensure?

    Posted 04-22-2023 09:40 PM

    NYC loss of life building with SUV's on top floor reason . Not help me and others in NYC with global coverage !



    ------------------------------
    Len Andersen - Water Swirled into Gas Turbine Tech - Engineer - Power Gen - Propulsion Welding New patent 11,603,794
    -- www.gasturbineandersen.com at Gas Turbine events with three patents in electrical generation / propulsion +5 to 50 % more fuel efficiency heard of office 46 Alexander Av - Yonkers NY
    // 914-536-7101 Cell - 5 PM - 5 AM 800-428-4801
    ------------------------------