Discussion: View Thread

I recently read an article from the Washington Post which contained the following excerpt:

"Climate scientist Jason Box has proposed covering Greenland's glaciers with white blankets to reflect sunlight, keeping the ice frozen. In a documentary for Discovery UK, Box and colleagues demonstrated the concept by unrolling a special white polypropylene blanket over about two and a half acres atop Greenland, totaling 31 rolls. It may sound crazy, but on a much tinier scale, a similar project is saving about 1 percent of the Northern Schneeferner, the largest glacier in Germany. Greenland, however, is 7 million times that glacier in area."

It made me wonder about the efficacy of using recycled plastic, which is piling up due to lack of appropriate uses, to make up the plastic rolls to cover glaciers. The obstacle might be achieving the appropriate white color to reflect the sunlight. What do members of this group think of this idea?



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Bevin Beaudet P.E., M.ASCE
President/Owner
Bevin A. Beaudet, P.E., LLC.
Bethlehem PA
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There are 3 possible issues with this approach.

1. Polypropylene is a hydrocarbon product and ironically requires oil extraction and refining to produce.
2. Blankets like this would have to be UV stabilized.  The best UV stabilizer is carbon black which would absorb solar energy.
3. If not UV stabilized, the plastic, whether virgin or recycled, would degrade due to solar action, entering the ecosystem and becoming trash, likely blown into the sea where it would cause havoc by choking sealife attempting to eat it or snaring them causing them to drown.

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Konrad Mech P.Eng
Director, Sensors and Robotics Channel Management
Kongsberg Maritime AS
Port Coquitlam BC
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Original Message:
Sent: 10-09-2021 11:30 AM
From: Bevin Beaudet
Subject: Mitigation of Climate Change

I recently read an article from the Washington Post which contained the following excerpt:

"Climate scientist Jason Box has proposed covering Greenland's glaciers with white blankets to reflect sunlight, keeping the ice frozen. In a documentary for Discovery UK, Box and colleagues demonstrated the concept by unrolling a special white polypropylene blanket over about two and a half acres atop Greenland, totaling 31 rolls. It may sound crazy, but on a much tinier scale, a similar project is saving about 1 percent of the Northern Schneeferner, the largest glacier in Germany. Greenland, however, is 7 million times that glacier in area."

It made me wonder about the efficacy of using recycled plastic, which is piling up due to lack of appropriate uses, to make up the plastic rolls to cover glaciers. The obstacle might be achieving the appropriate white color to reflect the sunlight. What do members of this group think of this idea?



------------------------------
Bevin Beaudet P.E., M.ASCE
President/Owner
Bevin A. Beaudet, P.E., LLC.
Bethlehem PA
------------------------------

Here's a 4th issue - why would a white blanket be better than the glacier itself (is it blue and therefore absorbs radiation?) Are there sensitive real-time, measuring techniques that can show whether the blanket is effective?

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Sarah Simon P.E., ENV SP, M.ASCE
Founding Partner
Ipswich MA
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Original Message:
Sent: 10-11-2021 02:27 AM
From: Konrad Mech
Subject: Mitigation of Climate Change

There are 3 possible issues with this approach.

1. Polypropylene is a hydrocarbon product and ironically requires oil extraction and refining to produce.
2. Blankets like this would have to be UV stabilized.  The best UV stabilizer is carbon black which would absorb solar energy.
3. If not UV stabilized, the plastic, whether virgin or recycled, would degrade due to solar action, entering the ecosystem and becoming trash, likely blown into the sea where it would cause havoc by choking sealife attempting to eat it or snaring them causing them to drown.

------------------------------
Konrad Mech P.Eng
Director, Sensors and Robotics Channel Management
Kongsberg Maritime AS
Port Coquitlam BC

Original Message:
Sent: 10-09-2021 11:30 AM
From: Bevin Beaudet
Subject: Mitigation of Climate Change

I recently read an article from the Washington Post which contained the following excerpt:

"Climate scientist Jason Box has proposed covering Greenland's glaciers with white blankets to reflect sunlight, keeping the ice frozen. In a documentary for Discovery UK, Box and colleagues demonstrated the concept by unrolling a special white polypropylene blanket over about two and a half acres atop Greenland, totaling 31 rolls. It may sound crazy, but on a much tinier scale, a similar project is saving about 1 percent of the Northern Schneeferner, the largest glacier in Germany. Greenland, however, is 7 million times that glacier in area."

It made me wonder about the efficacy of using recycled plastic, which is piling up due to lack of appropriate uses, to make up the plastic rolls to cover glaciers. The obstacle might be achieving the appropriate white color to reflect the sunlight. What do members of this group think of this idea?



------------------------------
Bevin Beaudet P.E., M.ASCE
President/Owner
Bevin A. Beaudet, P.E., LLC.
Bethlehem PA
------------------------------

Dear Bevin, as I was reading your article, I had the same thought about plastic. Wouldn't it be wonderful to harvest the plastic from the ocean gyres to make blankets?! Therese Baer, P.E.

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Therese Baer P.E., M.ASCE
President
Baer Engineering & Environmental Consulting, Inc.
Austin TX
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-09-2021 11:30 AM
From: Bevin Beaudet
Subject: Mitigation of Climate Change

I recently read an article from the Washington Post which contained the following excerpt:

"Climate scientist Jason Box has proposed covering Greenland's glaciers with white blankets to reflect sunlight, keeping the ice frozen. In a documentary for Discovery UK, Box and colleagues demonstrated the concept by unrolling a special white polypropylene blanket over about two and a half acres atop Greenland, totaling 31 rolls. It may sound crazy, but on a much tinier scale, a similar project is saving about 1 percent of the Northern Schneeferner, the largest glacier in Germany. Greenland, however, is 7 million times that glacier in area."

It made me wonder about the efficacy of using recycled plastic, which is piling up due to lack of appropriate uses, to make up the plastic rolls to cover glaciers. The obstacle might be achieving the appropriate white color to reflect the sunlight. What do members of this group think of this idea?



------------------------------
Bevin Beaudet P.E., M.ASCE
President/Owner
Bevin A. Beaudet, P.E., LLC.
Bethlehem PA
------------------------------

I think we should layout the various alternatives, determine the extraneous constraints & consequences and t select that ones that give us the biggest bang for the buck. 

This is the standard approach to engineering problems. 

in this case what are you going to do the covering deteriorates and the wind tears it up and blows it into the ocean. 

its ok to come up with ideas. Just make the decisions logically, considering all the possible consequences over the lifetime of the improvement. 

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Anthony Lusich P.E., F.ASCE
Engineering Manager
Bakersfield CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-09-2021 11:30 AM
From: Bevin Beaudet
Subject: Mitigation of Climate Change

I recently read an article from the Washington Post which contained the following excerpt:

"Climate scientist Jason Box has proposed covering Greenland's glaciers with white blankets to reflect sunlight, keeping the ice frozen. In a documentary for Discovery UK, Box and colleagues demonstrated the concept by unrolling a special white polypropylene blanket over about two and a half acres atop Greenland, totaling 31 rolls. It may sound crazy, but on a much tinier scale, a similar project is saving about 1 percent of the Northern Schneeferner, the largest glacier in Germany. Greenland, however, is 7 million times that glacier in area."

It made me wonder about the efficacy of using recycled plastic, which is piling up due to lack of appropriate uses, to make up the plastic rolls to cover glaciers. The obstacle might be achieving the appropriate white color to reflect the sunlight. What do members of this group think of this idea?



------------------------------
Bevin Beaudet P.E., M.ASCE
President/Owner
Bevin A. Beaudet, P.E., LLC.
Bethlehem PA
------------------------------

The idea is very simple in concept – but no doubt daringly novel. Hope it will work, although as far as the material is concerned, the efficacy of polypropylene with other reinforcements was questioned (e.g. by Konrad Mech). But seems to be working on a small scale in Germany (As Bevin pointed out)!

From the energy balance perspective, I wonder how energy transferred (one way – hot to cold according to the 2^nd Law of Thermodynamics) from the boundaries of the covered glacier is addressed. These boundaries are: (1) the uncovered adjacent sides of grounds/glaciers, and (2) perhaps even the bottom that may be connected to open warm water. Are these boundary effects found negligible to justify the undertaking? In addition, one may wonder how much energy is predicted to be reflected as opposed to the expected absorption/retention of some.

-----

Dilip

Website

ORCID ID

Google Scholar

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Dr. Dilip Barua, Ph.D, P.Eng, M. ASCE
Vancouver, BC, Canada
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Original Message:
Sent: 10-09-2021 11:30 AM
From: Bevin Beaudet
Subject: Mitigation of Climate Change

I recently read an article from the Washington Post which contained the following excerpt:

"Climate scientist Jason Box has proposed covering Greenland's glaciers with white blankets to reflect sunlight, keeping the ice frozen. In a documentary for Discovery UK, Box and colleagues demonstrated the concept by unrolling a special white polypropylene blanket over about two and a half acres atop Greenland, totaling 31 rolls. It may sound crazy, but on a much tinier scale, a similar project is saving about 1 percent of the Northern Schneeferner, the largest glacier in Germany. Greenland, however, is 7 million times that glacier in area."

It made me wonder about the efficacy of using recycled plastic, which is piling up due to lack of appropriate uses, to make up the plastic rolls to cover glaciers. The obstacle might be achieving the appropriate white color to reflect the sunlight. What do members of this group think of this idea?



------------------------------
Bevin Beaudet P.E., M.ASCE
President/Owner
Bevin A. Beaudet, P.E., LLC.
Bethlehem PA
------------------------------

This may be a solution, but I think it's needs to be put into a more robust decision framework including clarity on the problem being solved and alternatives. It also calls for deep issue raising and evaluation across both the full range of issue space including technical, operational, environmental, economic and political. My gut feeling is that the law of unintended consequences will overwhelm and destroy any possible value. I also think of practical considerations. The areal extent to be covered  is overwhelming. It's analogous to trying to clean up the plastic garbage in the oceans.

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Mitch Winkler P.E., M.ASCE
Houston, TX
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-09-2021 11:30 AM
From: Bevin Beaudet
Subject: Mitigation of Climate Change

I recently read an article from the Washington Post which contained the following excerpt:

"Climate scientist Jason Box has proposed covering Greenland's glaciers with white blankets to reflect sunlight, keeping the ice frozen. In a documentary for Discovery UK, Box and colleagues demonstrated the concept by unrolling a special white polypropylene blanket over about two and a half acres atop Greenland, totaling 31 rolls. It may sound crazy, but on a much tinier scale, a similar project is saving about 1 percent of the Northern Schneeferner, the largest glacier in Germany. Greenland, however, is 7 million times that glacier in area."

It made me wonder about the efficacy of using recycled plastic, which is piling up due to lack of appropriate uses, to make up the plastic rolls to cover glaciers. The obstacle might be achieving the appropriate white color to reflect the sunlight. What do members of this group think of this idea?



------------------------------
Bevin Beaudet P.E., M.ASCE
President/Owner
Bevin A. Beaudet, P.E., LLC.
Bethlehem PA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10/14/2021 11:07:00 AM
From: Mitchell Winkler
Subject: RE: Mitigation of Climate Change

This may be a solution, but I think it's needs to be put into a more robust decision framework including clarity on the problem being solved and alternatives. It also calls for deep issue raising and evaluation across both the full range of issue space including technical, operational, environmental, economic and political. My gut feeling is that the law of unintended consequences will overwhelm and destroy any possible value. I also think of practical considerations. The areal extent to be covered  is overwhelming. It's analogous to trying to clean up the plastic garbage in the oceans.

------------------------------
Mitch Winkler P.E., M.ASCE
Houston, TX
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-09-2021 11:30 AM
From: Bevin Beaudet
Subject: Mitigation of Climate Change

I recently read an article from the Washington Post which contained the following excerpt:

"Climate scientist Jason Box has proposed covering Greenland's glaciers with white blankets to reflect sunlight, keeping the ice frozen. In a documentary for Discovery UK, Box and colleagues demonstrated the concept by unrolling a special white polypropylene blanket over about two and a half acres atop Greenland, totaling 31 rolls. It may sound crazy, but on a much tinier scale, a similar project is saving about 1 percent of the Northern Schneeferner, the largest glacier in Germany. Greenland, however, is 7 million times that glacier in area."

It made me wonder about the efficacy of using recycled plastic, which is piling up due to lack of appropriate uses, to make up the plastic rolls to cover glaciers. The obstacle might be achieving the appropriate white color to reflect the sunlight. What do members of this group think of this idea?



------------------------------
Bevin Beaudet P.E., M.ASCE
President/Owner
Bevin A. Beaudet, P.E., LLC.
Bethlehem PA
------------------------------