Hello, yes I agree.
But from my perspective a ethic code should have an allowance for some more idealistic formulations.
I still miss in the whole discussion the lessons learned regarding organizational / people interaction in failure causes.
Here comes into play what you mention with peoples best interest. It seems the "interest" is sometimes only "survival" in a group or company and imposes a burden to the single engineer. The question must be, why is the interest of the group or organization not in line with those of the Engineer? What is wrong in the social framework?
There are many Ethic and Compliance departments on organizational level. There is also Company Registration as design firms in may states. Why does the Society not take advantage of those things and impose Ethical standards also onto the group level?
Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2019 15:46
From: Mark Gilligan
Subject: Code of ethics reboot
Much of the talk about ethics seems to be by professors teaching ethics. The intention is to apply these ethical admonitions to practicing engineers who had no input into heir development.
I will suggest that by the time students reach college they have already adopted an ethical framework and that much of which passes for ethical training has to do with communicating a specific set of rules proposed by others. These rules can be memorized but the question is does this memorization change their behavior.
It has been more eloquently said that you cannot convince somebody of something that is in conflict with their self interest.
I have also seen some individuals to apply the ethical cannons absolutely to support a particular agenda. This game playing is a turnoff.
Let us be less judgmental and focus on why certain behavior is more beneficial in the long term. As I see it the fundamental rule is do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
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Mark Gilligan SE
Berkeley CA
Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2019 11:11
From: William Hayden
Subject: Code of ethics reboot
Right this very moment, I am wondering "Who has the road map for all of this?"
Suggested citation: National Academy of Engineering. 2017. Overcoming Challenges to Infusing Ethics into the Development of Engineers: Proceedings of a Workshop. Washington, DC: The National Academies Press. doi: https://doi.org/10.17226/24821.
The attachment has a few points from the above referenced workshop.
When I reflect on the dialogue so far within this chat-space, and then review what faculty and others have been pushing in the "Infusing Ethics" part of the educational programs of our universities, I am flabbergasted ....is that even a word?
Cheers,
Bill
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William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
Buffalo, N.Y.
"It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
Original Message:
Sent: 08-12-2019 23:18
From: William Hayden
Subject: Code of ethics reboot
2nd Release: Balanced Code of Ethics – "Open" Versus "Closed" Society
To help those with limited time, I decided to provide sources with 'hotlinks.'
To be clear the documents in this second release are not duplicates of the initial release.
8/12/19 11:12 PM W. M. Hayden Jr.
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William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
Buffalo, N.Y.
"It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
Original Message:
Sent: 08-12-2019 12:28
From: William Hayden
Subject: Code of ethics reboot
RESEARCH:
Balanced Code of Ethics – "Open" Versus "Closed" Society
Dear Colleagues,
It finally occurred to me that we probably are not the first professional society to have to address the challenges Kim keeps reminding us of.
Therefore, I assembled some limited examples to highlight what other professions have done.
N.B. What is shared herein is *NOT* offered for any 'cut & paste' but rather to suggest we need to develop a specialized cross-functional, multi-disciplined[1] task force Program, with a Projects Plan[2] and its' usual 'trimmings' to get off the "Well, here's what I think" wagon, and do the professional work we've been educated, trained, and conditioned to do. . . .Including arms-length Phase-Gate Reviews.
Moreover, as usual, of course I may be wrong!
Cheers,
Bill
Attachment XYZ"
Some References Without Either Recommendation Nor Prejudice Follow:
[1] Means non-engineers, sociocultural psychologists, beaucoup women <40 years young, and > 27,
multicultural, yada, yada, yada.
[2] WBS, Risk Management Plan, etc., etc., etc.
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William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
Buffalo, N.Y.
"It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2019 10:11
From: William Hayden
Subject: Code of ethics reboot
Hi Mark, thanks for your comment.
For myself, I would appreciate a clarification, if that's ok with you.
My prior two posts addressed the 'screaming need' for clarity to name and include women.
The 2nd post, from the WSJ, was based solely on the changing times with the very positive impact women
are making in the economy of business....which we expect will increase, if not accelerate.
Q. Was your "Social Justice" reflection about that?
Thanks for your time in considering my question.
Cheers,
Bill
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William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
Buffalo, N.Y.
"It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2019 02:35
From: Mark Gilligan
Subject: Code of ethics reboot
Introducing social justice issues into the code of ethics has the potential of creating unintended consequences. In my experience these general statements are often distorted by some individuals.
For example what is the engineers obligation when he feels that the building should be designed for performance better than the code requires for seismic or wind effects but this would result in added costs and the client is clear that he does not want this higher level of performance. This could get real messy real fast.
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Mark Gilligan SE., M.ASCE
Berkeley CA
Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2019 14:00
From: William Hayden
Subject: Code of ethics reboot
I wish to build a bit on Kim's earlier closing point "I think it is necessary to address this on-going problem explicitly in the development of the new code."
And I will be uncharacteristically brief!
Each of us, as well of others not yet in this online chat-dialogue have personal, sincere, professional, and other reasons for their assertive positions. Today's Wall Street Journal, 10-11AUG2019,[1] offers still another, "Economics 101."
As the article states "The growing clout of women as drivers of the U.S. economy will radically alter the business and investing landscape in years to come."
". . .Ignoring the changes is the equivalent of sticking one's head in shifting sand."
--Justin LaHart and Lauren Silva Laughlin
[1] https://www.wsj.com/articles/when-women-bring-home-a-bigger-slice-of-the-bacon-11565343002
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William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
Buffalo, N.Y.
"It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
Original Message:
Sent: 08-07-2019 16:49
From: William Hayden
Subject: Code of ethics reboot
Wednesday, August 7, 2019
Hi Melanie, thanks for noting diversity, inclusion, and the current reality that while under the current ASCE Code of Ethics discouraging women from STEM Careers is a violation, it needs to be more explicit.
I really like what Bevin asserts, "The code should not allow ambiguities."
And then Charles adds "There should not be numbers, but rather these different buckets should be regarded as pillars in holding up ethical behavior, and if one is weak then it threatens the overall.
What will make ASCE's next Code of Ethics credible to the public-at-large, private and public sector clients, and those young women and men who decide to enter the profession will be its ability to pass the 'snicker' test.
'Snicker', the natural instinct one has to spontaneous hold a suppressed laugh.
o Real-World Challenges Today:
- Our professional women in university being sexually harassed by faculty and others.
- Women engineers in the workplace being overlooked and/or underpaid for career development.
- Women engineering professionals leaving the civil engineering field.
- Women engineers forming their own groups, sans men.
- Executive men engineers doing what they can to keep the lid tight on the above.
Bring in your men and women engineers between the ages of 27 to 39 to be part of this Code of Ethics exercise, and let some of the more mature engineers serve as "Review Boards."
Cheers,
Bill
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William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
Buffalo, N.Y.
"It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
Original Message:
Sent: 08-05-2019 10:47
From: Brock Barry
Subject: Code of ethics reboot
Kevin
Thanks for your comments. I wish to assure you that this is not change for the sake of change. The ASCE Board established this Task Committee. The charge presented to the Task Committee was to in essence write a code of ethics for ASCE from scratch. Further, the Task Committee was strongly encouraged to not reference the existing Code (write a new Code as if there were not already an existing Code). That is an incredible exercise to participate in.
The ball is just getting rolling with this activity. There will be significant engagement with ASCE members at all levels of the organization. In fact, an initial outreach to all ASCE Committees, Institutes, and Regions is just about to launch. Subsequent outreach activities will directly engage individual members. There will be space for all voices in this process.
------------------------------
Brock Barry Ph.D.,P.E.,F.ASCE
Professor of Engineering Education
West Point NY
Original Message:
Sent: 08-04-2019 22:09
From: Kevin Hall
Subject: Code of ethics reboot
Thanks, Stephanie, for initiating this thread.
Like others, I teach 'ethics' to our civil engineering students - and have for over 20 years. From that perspective, certainly it is advantageous that ASCE's Code of Ethics shares the format (and much of the same language) as NSPE, ASME, and others - particularly when prepping students for the FE, and when using ASCE's "A Question of Ethics" cases for analysis and application. I fully realize, however, that practitioners may respond better to a format other than "Canons".
I agree with a couple of comments made in response to the article itself -- is a new organization/format demonstrably an "improvement"? Is this simply change-for-change's-sake? In addition, there should be an opportunity provided to the general membership for reaction/comment to the proposed changes.
On a more pedantic note, I was curious about the graphic included in the article - the middle circle says "Preamble: Overarching behavior ethical principals". Two things: (1) I hope this was not supposed to be a sentence (I am guessing there are two items in the Preamble - overarching behavior - and - ethical principles); and (2) should it not be "principles" rather than "principals" (as it is spelled in the graphic)? Hmmm...
Again, thanks for the topic!!!
------------------------------
Kevin Hall Ph.D.,P.E.,M.ASCE
Professor
Univ Of Arkansas
Fayetteville AR
(479) 575-8695
Original Message:
Sent: 07-31-2019 14:56
From: Stephanie Slocum
Subject: Code of ethics reboot
There was an article published last week on the ASCE News page: "Refresh on the ASCE Code of ethics."
I'm one of the members of the task committee working on this project, and wanted to start this thread to allow a forum for general thoughts and comments on the article, as well as to raise awareness.
I am tagging those who commented on the article so far for further comment here if desired. @Monica McCluskey @John McLaughlin @Martha Vangeem @Arun Kumar Rao @Charles Fowler @Joshua Steelman @Arun Kumar
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Stephanie Slocum P.E.,M.ASCE
Founder
Engineers Rising LLC
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