So, as we listen to Helen, Shirley, and Martha share their substantial career experiences while simply and simultaneously practicing engineering and struggling to understand why male engineers seem to move forward and upward in their responsibilities at a faster pace, so far some have characterized this all-to-common environment as a unique "Engineering Profession Attribute."
The snippet from a recent news article that follows belies that faulty assumption.
Given the systemic, historic, well-documented discounting of women in professional fields of endeavor, as well as in far too many of the societal environments women share with men, what if we collectively applied our professional skills collaboratively to address these entrenched, habitual behaviors?
1. Private Sector.
2. Public Sector.
3. Professional Associations
p.s. For some reason, the expression "Fish or cut bait" comes to mind.
William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
Buffalo, N.Y.
"It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
Original Message:
Sent: 12-23-2019 13:41
From: Helen Watts
Subject: Female Engineers
I'm taking an ESL tutoring course, and one of the subjects is the different cultures - because learning language is also learning the underlying culture. So, the take-away for diverse engineers, and their opportunities, is that we get some opportunities on the engineering culture above the water line. But little, and big, hiccups happen when we try to be whole people. And hiccups = different "opportunities", and lower salaries.
People keep talking about the "onlies". For my entire career, I was the first and only, and it is a true bummer to see young women at SWE meetings, just starting out with their families, and having to deal with the dumb stuff in 2019. I've been "aggressive", I worked two weeks past my first due date (because it panicked the guys I was working with - and I felt FINE!), I've taken the jobs the guys wouldn't, I almost had a mentor once (sigh), and I've made less pay than my husband every year, because I had lesser jobs. I've tried to be there for the younger engineers and others facing the Lexan Ceiling (you can break glass with a simple hammer, after all), and I'm every client's first woman engineer on most jobs, still. And I do Girl Scout events, and demonstrations in schools. I started my own company, and I'm never going to retire. They're going to have to take my steaming body out of some crawl space.
I'm not going to give up, or be pushed out. The people with deep culture problems will just have to deal with me.
And, maybe, eventually, they can change their minds.
------------------------------
Helen Watts P.E., M.ASCE
Principal
Helen Watts Engineering PLLC
Bowdoin ME
Original Message:
Sent: 12-22-2019 06:26
From: William Hayden
Subject: Female Engineers
Feedback has noted the opinions of caring educated, professional engineers, women and men.
I recently read of research on Patricia's question that included sources related to this thread's topic.
And such research was offered by professional's in related fields of study that bear directly on the subject.
It is shared below.
Cheers. . . and the very best of the New Year to one and all,
Bill
<>======================<>=================<>
Award Abstract #1733897
SBP: The Roots of Female Underrepresentation in STEM [1] and Beyond: Exploring the Development of Gender Stereotypes about Intelligence
ABSTRACT
"This project examines the development of a key factor leading to women's underrepresentation in science and technology. Specifically, it examines the development of the cultural stereotype that links males but not females with intellectual brilliance and genius. Previous research has found that academic disciplines that are believed to require a "spark of genius" tend to have the largest gender gaps. Because many science fields are portrayed in such terms, the "brilliance = males" stereotype may be an important factor in explaining the persistent gender gap in these disciplines. . . . . ."
[1] https://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward?AWD_ID=1733897&HistoricalAwards=false
Downloaded 22DEC2019
------------------------------
William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
Buffalo, N.Y.
"It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
Original Message:
Sent: 12-11-2019 05:36
From: William Hayden
Subject: Female Engineers
I learned quite some time ago in my MSCE studies during a required course, "Indeterminate Structural Analysis," to respect out loud, clearly when you sense or see something that isn't familiar or clear before moving forward with "Obvious Solutions."
After all, there is a clue to this philosophy right in the title of the course!
Hence, the reason I have inserted the quote below from a popular psychology periodical.
"I think this usage is now common, but it's really beside the point.[2] Call it sexism, male chauvinism, or any other name, it adds up to the same thing: ideologies and methods for controlling, restricting, suppressing, denigrating, and, when necessary, physically harming women so that men can be in charge of their reproductive capacities, limit them mainly to reproductive and other subservient roles, and avoid competing with them in an open market of human effort, talent, and skill. In other words, you don't have to hate women to behave hatefully toward them."
One example of this "Indeterminate" social psychology challenge was neatly postulated by Chad:
"Setting up girls to be successful engineers or any other professional starts early! Engineering has historically been a male dominated profession, the inverse of teaching. So where do our members fit into solving the problem?"
Q. What do you think about adding to this thread's dialogue suggested "Tools & Techniques" to make,
at the very least, some rudimentary fact-based process planning support to Patricia's question?
With respect, understanding, and love for all,
Bill
[1] Private email to Hayden.
[2] https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-tangled-wing/201210/misogyny-chauvinism-sexism-or-what downloaded 11DEC2019
------------------------------
William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
Buffalo, N.Y.
"It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
Original Message:
Sent: 12-10-2019 12:10
From: Shirley Clark
Subject: Female Engineers
Stephanie and all:
I took this discussion to my graduate groundwater class. There are 4 women in the class - 3 of them are working full time and going to school part time. The other is a full-time international student. There are 6 men in the class, which is irrelevant to this but I wanted you to know that this is a fairly heavy female course. I reviewed without directly reading my first engineering job experience (detailed above). The jaws dropped for 2 of the women and noted that they hadn't seen that. The third one said I was describing her workplace currently with the sexual jokes and the downgrading of women. She's a structural engineer working for a division of a firm that is affiliated with the power industry.
The lesson here for all leaders and managers (and there is a difference in those two) is that we still have room to grow up and be adults. It's getting better - I'm cheered that 66% of my women can't believe that men would openly talk about sex and have tool calendars in the open in the office. But 33% of the women said that was a normal office and a normal day.
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Shirley Clark Ph.D., P.E., D.WRE, F.EWRI, M.ASCE
Professor
Penn State Harrisburg
Middletown PA
Original Message:
Sent: 12-09-2019 13:58
From: Stephanie Slocum
Subject: Female Engineers
LeanIn.org's 2019 Women in the Workforce report noted that the "broken rung is the biggest obstacle women face". This is that first step from individual contributor to management. You can see the overall issue in the graphic below (which is in the report linked above):
What can we do about it? A couple of things:
1. Corporations: Establish clear, transparent expectations on what it takes to be promoted. I think many organizations - and especially the many, many small to midsize organizations in civil engineering, have never taken the time to write this down, let alone lay this out to all employees in a sucinct, consistent way. Regardless of intentions, when expectations are not clear and measurable, bias ends up playing into decision-making, and there is a general feeling that "things are not fair" among all employees. This alone has huge benefits to the entire work culture, not only women and minorities.
2. Individuals (all genders): If you want to be promoted, understand it is up to you to make this VERY VERY VERY (can I add a few more "very's" here?) clear to your current manager and boss that you have those aspirations. In every performance review, you can say "I aspire to a management position, what do I need to do to get there", and then craft a plan with your manager. If you get a "deer in the headlights" look when you say this, or are continually put off year after year (i.e. you are doing the work, but there's always an excuse as to "why you aren't there yet"), consider moving on to a more growth-oriented environment.
Others on this thread have alluded to the fact that men tend to ask for this more than women do, which is statistically supported. What the other posters may not have mentioned is that women often face more backlash - from both men and women - when they advocate for themselves. Don't let that stop you.
3. All: Recognize that generally you have to "see it to be it." and do everything you can to support and promote mentorship, especially for traditionally unrepresented groups. That means: If you don't already have female leadership at a high level in your firm (or she's too swamped to do mentorship), find a way for your up-and-coming women to meet other women in their field in those positions, like supporting them in women in engineering groups. For example, there is WiSE, a women in structural engineering group, and other groups like SWE. If you are in leadership, actively mentor the next generation. For men mentoring women, be blunt about the fact that you don't understand everything younger women may be facing (and yes, you need to explictly say.be willing to admit this before many women will open up to you!), but you want to do what you can to help her along, and so you are committed to mentoring and listening.
Along those lines, I've put together an online conference for women in engineering and allies Dec 9-13, called the
She Engineers 2019 Virtual Summit. All the interviews are FREE for 48 hours, and are for curated women in engineering working "in the trenches". I'd encourage everyone on this thread to sign up if interested (links are emailed to you upon sign-up). Two of the interviews today (Monday, 12/9/19) were
@Robin Kemper, and Andi Dumont, both civil engineers. We also talked to Jocelyn Jackson, the National Chair of the National Association of Black Engineers, about what we can do to better support minority women. We have 25 inspirational role models and experts in "women in the workforce" to help others "see it to be it."
------------------------------
Stephanie Slocum P.E., M.ASCE
Founder
Engineers Rising LLC
www.engineersrising.com
Original Message:
Sent: 12-09-2019 10:31
From: Shirley Clark
Subject: Female Engineers
Here are several lists of famous female civil engineers and famous female engineers.
http://istonline.org.in/5-famous-women-civil-engineers/
Famous Female Civil Engineers
https://gizmodo.com/six-women-who-paved-the-way-for-female-engineers-and-ar-1561870366
Also check with your young professionals group in your local ASCE or institute chapter. They likely have very good role female role models.
But as a geeky engineer, it's great to take kids to see these famous landmarks and have them realize that some are designed and built by men and some are designed and built by women.
I was very fortunate because I didn't have a female role model or mentor. BUT (and I am eternally grateful to them) I had fantastic male mentors and role models and a father who was an engineer and who didn't believe in limitations due to gender.
------------------------------
Shirley Clark Ph.D., P.E., D.WRE, F.EWRI, M.ASCE
Professor
Penn State Harrisburg
Middletown PA
Original Message:
Sent: 12-09-2019 09:26
From: Chad Morrison
Subject: Female Engineers
Setting up girls to be successful engineers or any other professional starts early! Engineering has historically been a male dominated profession, the inverse of teaching. So where do our members fit into solving the problem? How many of our members fathers or uncles? How can we instill equality as a value in the next generation?
As a father of a toddler daughter, I have seen first hand how she always seeks female role models to emulate. The role models are there and you just have to follow their lead to find them. Be honest with them about history. You don't see the impact putting a woman on a coin has, until your toddler starts asking you about Sacagawa or Susan B. Anthony. It's past due to put a woman on a bill, not for PC reasons, but because it does matter. My daughter does not want to be Neil Armstrong or Charles Lindbergh, she wants to be Sally Ride or Amelia Earhart. She also wants to be Spider-Woman and Deborah Harry. She has many community role models at the library, farm, and church, as well. She will typically ask me about any female engineers who I work with. Are there any famous female civil engineers that I can teach her about?
My wife left the teaching profession to raise our toddler and our little boy who just arrived! The pay, the hours, and the bureaucracy are all major factors in her choice. That profession faces its own challenges in the future. Regardless, the focus should be on the education needs of the children and it is up to our engineering profession to communicate our expectations to schools. Being good at math is not the be-all-end-all for becoming a good engineer. Is that message being conveyed?
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Chad Morrison P.E., M.ASCE
Professional Engineer
Greenville RI
Original Message:
Sent: 12-08-2019 13:21
From: Shirley Clark
Subject: Female Engineers
This is a great topic to revive from the archives. We've had a couple of years of MeToo, where sexual harassment has brought out both the overt and subtle sexism in society and in some workplaces. It's a good time to check in and see if awareness has risen in the profession.
I just returned yesterday from a 2-day meeting at ASCE Headquarters working on a committee looking at the future of our profession. It's always fun to work with great men and women on these committees and inside this national service, I find generally great respect and little sexism. But these are the forward thinkers in our profession.
As a mid-career woman, I'll mix personal experience with research. I first went to work in the environmental engineering division of a small (70 employee) firm in late 1980s. My direct boss was supportive of all employees. He gave me a 90-day evaluation and I got a promotion and a substantial raise. But, every day when I had to use the photocopier, I had to go to the bridge division and had to stare at the Makita tool calendar pinup of the month (Google "Vintage Pinup Makita Tool Girls" if you don't know what that is). This was society's message to women – you are valued for your sexual appeal. When the prostitute plied her trade in the parking lot behind the office, most of the men pulled their binoculars out of their desk and rushed to the windows to watch (I wonder what the loads on that corner of the building were). Fellow engineers felt very comfortable spending their lunch hour at the nudie bar in the Combat Zone and coming back to talk about it in the afternoon. This was my launch into engineering. A boss that didn't see limits on my talent because of my gender made up for some of it, but … my fellow engineers focused on a woman's sexuality.
Societal cues, though, start much earlier than the entry to the workplace. Recent studies have shown that there isn't a difference in the abilities of boys and girls to do math and science (https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/11/08/777187543/math-looks-the-same-in-the-brains-of-boys-and-girls-study-finds), but somewhere girls are being told that they aren't as good at math. When that happens, girls tend not to pursue engineering.
Where does it start? I think it starts pretty early. Depending on the religion you are raised in, you may start off with the creation story of Adam being led astray by a woman and being kicked out of the garden. This is after you tell girls that they were created from a man. The creation story, as passed on by the churches through years of translation and transcription by men who wanted to stay in power, starts with a male god. It's not an asexual, amorphous blob, but it is a man who is the head. Try walking into a fundamentalist church and stating that you don't think the highest deity has a sex and you will be lucky to escape. So as early as toddler years, girls are hearing the story that women are lesser and can fall prey to evil and lead good men astray. The primary prophets and heads of many world religions are men (Zeus, Jupiter, Mohammed, Jesus, Confucius, Buddha, etc.). Who translated these religions into text after centuries of oral tradition? Men. Who wanted to maintain power? Men.
Then gifts to babies are divided into boy toys and girl toys. Honestly, I liked trucks and blocks as much as dolls. But I knew early on that Barbie was a fluff girl to her harder working Ken. In my generation, Barbie didn't have a profession or work clothes. Ken had that. That message gets internalized. And I got a lot of Barbies and fewer blocks and trucks from older relatives. Within the last decade, Barbie came with a voice and noted that Math is Hard. Where is Ken saying that Math is Hard? Math is hard for a lot of people. (when I buy kids' gifts, I ask their parents what they like, if I don't know it already – I'll buy dolls, and books, and blocks, and whatever).
Now these children get to school. In elementary school, most of the teachers are women. Why aren't more men encouraged to get into elementary education? It would do all children good to see a mix of teachers from an early age. Usually the argument is pay. Then let's ask why teachers aren't paid better to raise and educate the next generation.
In school, the research shows that "…teachers consistently rate girls' mathematical proficiency lower than that of boys with similar achievement and learning behaviors" (https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2332858416673617). This problem starts early. "Teachers thought that their average achieving girls were less logical than equally achieving boys. Teachers rated mathematics as more difficult for average achieving girls than for equally achieving boys. With regard to girls, teachers attributed unexpected failure more to low ability and less to lack of effort than with boys." (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1003953801526). As long as a sufficient number of elementary school teachers believe that girls are less capable and with elementary schools not being able to attract teachers as easily that are male and/or high-achieving in science and math, we will continue to have a perception problem. This manifests itself with boys being told that this is just hard and they can do it, and girls being told that they don't have this ability.
This bias continues when peers evaluate peers. "… males are more likely than females to be named by peers as being knowledgeable about the course content. This effect increases as the term progresses, and persists even after controlling for class performance and outspokenness. The bias in nominations is specifically due to males over-nominating their male peers relative to their performance. …Females, in contrast, nominated equitably based on student performance rather than gender." (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0148405). So now we have men overpromoting men. This then translates to what was noted by several people on here regarding men being more willing to self-promote. They have been taught this from an early age – they are the same gender as the deity, their ribs were used to create women from them, they are told that they are good in math and science and a struggle is just a small roadblock, but not a career killer.
It also affects how men rate faculty in college. Many studies highlight the gender bias in student evaluations. (https://academic.oup.com/jeea/article-abstract/17/2/535/4850534?redirectedFrom=fulltext). What's scary is that this continues in online evaluations. When teaching the same online course with the same content, "…the language students use in evaluations regarding male professors is significantly different than language used in evaluating female professors. They also show that a male instructor administering an identical online course as a female instructor receives higher ordinal scores in teaching evaluations, even when questions are not instructor-specific." (https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/ps-political-science-and-politics/article/gender-bias-in-student-evaluations/1224BE475C0AE75A2C2D8553210C4E27). Interestingly, when awareness is raised about unconscious bias, it tends to disappear. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0216241. Many women in my age range are convinced that it is these unconscious biases are why we will not live to see a woman elected President in the United States. Regardless of the party, SHE is too … shrill, angry, argumentative, annoying, whatever. As I pay attention to the 2020 election, I've heard a lot of men and women talk about the female candidates in this way, but not about the men. I remember when Geraldine Ferraro was the VP candidate for Mondale. The discussion among my parents' friends was that a woman was too emotional to be commander in chief. I hear a lot of "yes, a woman can be president, but not … Palin, Warren, Ferraro, Harris, etc., because they are too …"
Now men move into the workforce. Several people have already mentioned hiring is often done to see if the interviewee "fits" into the company culture. In the 1980s, it meant that women just planned to work harder and longer than their male colleagues and you didn't raise an issue with the Makita calendar or with the discussion in an open office of the nudie bar. It meant that when you are greeted by a stranger who knows your boss at a conference, you don't say anything when the man kisses you on the lips (yes, this did happen to me). It was just a peck, so that was expected to be OK. Now fitting in the culture is more subtle, but it refers to company owners and executives who are not comfortable with a woman. The current US VP won't be alone with a woman and that stunts professional growth. He models behavior where he doesn't believe that women are at the same level but instead are Eve, tempting Adam with an apple. This is the behavior and belief system being advertised to our children. This is the corporate culture "fit" being advertised at the highest level.
Taking time off to have children and to raise children is still referred to as the Mommy Track, not the Parent Track. Why? Why are some people still referring to fathers spending time alone with their kids as "babysitting"? How many executives on here took substantial time off to deal with sick children or doctor's appointments or attended a lot of school performances? Again, these are still seen as women's work. When my nephews were in school, their forms said that, if the kids were sick or in trouble, the school should call my brother and not my SIL. They didn't do that; they almost always called my SIL. My brother could get out of work early and she couldn't but the societal pressure in a liberal bastion of a Midwest city still resulted in her getting called and then she had to call my brother.
Executives, even if you support fathers taking time off during the day for sick children at the same rate that you would support a mother, does the rest of your corporate culture convey that this is fine? Or are the men in your employment being kidded by their peers for being a Mr. Mom? Do you stop this and emphasize your corporate culture? Most parents I know will make up the hours and, in fact, having time to raise a family and having flexibility results in better employees because they know that this is rare. Do your employees see male executives leaving early to go to a recital or a ball game? Do your middle managers model this behavior? Do your fathers attend as many childhood events during the week as the mothers? If not, you still have a problem. While you only may need one parent to leave work if a child is sick, it is nice if both parents can attend many (but not all – deadlines at work will take care of all quickly) the fun and celebratory events.
These derogatory terms are accompanied in the workplace with the term aggressive applied more to women than men when the person is an high achiever. (https://www.forbes.com/sites/nextavenue/2018/08/28/when-women-are-called-aggressive-at-work/). In a seminar for women leaders on campus in the 1980s, we were given the same resume with 3 names – John, Victoria, and Pat. Women leaders thought John was a go-getter. Women leaders thought Victoria had advanced too fast and wondered how she moved up that fast. Women leaders wanted to know what Pat's gender was. Women have internalized this message. So women are taught not to be too assertive, to wait for our work to be recognized, and to not self-promote. Men are taught to be go-getters, to reach out of their comfort zone, and to self-promote. As noted by several men on this thread (thank you), male corporate and academic leaders have a responsibility to understand that women have gotten a negative message (and so have men) and it will impact how we ask for a promotion and for additional responsibility. Even when we are in a relatively equal workplace, outside messages in society place us in a secondary role (we don't have bodily autonomy in many states – women still have to have their husband's permission to have their tubes tied, for example, by some doctors. Men don't have the same hassle to have a vasectomy). There was a lot of discussion over the last few months about dating and whether men want to date and marry a woman who is smarter than him. Men say that they are ok with dating a smarter women until it could become a reality. (https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0146167215599749?etoc=). So women are getting the message that to have a family means you have to hide your intellect on the dating scene. Separating that message and not carrying it into work is a challenge.
Interestingly, in school, girls display qualities that are more compatible with being an engineering leader – they are stronger in language skills, especially among the highest and lowest achieving students. (https://psycnet.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037%2Famp0000356). As noted by another respondent, many men aim for positions above their ability. I chose not to apply for the open dean's position in my school in spite of about 8 colleagues asking me to, because I am not ready to move out of the classroom (my aim is the department chair position) and because the upper administration will stifle any new initiatives that are not dictated from the top and I'm not willing to fight that battle. Until a few fossils retire, nope. I could do it. I don't want to do it. I know that I am more likely to be a change agent where I am and with one additional promotion. I can shape the future leaders, male and female, in the classroom and potentially as department chair, and I can't do that as dean. I also can do my volunteering in ASCE and in my institute. So I don't need to chase the title. I'm on that search committee and I'm sure, like the last time, we'll see applications from people who desperately want the title, instead of being satisfied where they are – with strong research programs, etc. It is the title they want, even if they don't have the skills for it and haven't worked to develop them. As noted by an earlier respondent, some men are less likely to correctly evaluate their skills and their strengths. So they don't find a position that fits and don't move to new positions that fit their growth, but instead chase titles. Many women are willing to be more honest.
Given that women at the highest end of the spectrum are better communicators compared to their highest end male colleagues, these are the women that should be recruited to leadership. (yes, not everyone can be a manager, as noted by the economics of one respondent, but everyone can be given increasing responsibilities and growth opportunities – they can be informal leaders and mentors). Leadership is a communications skill set, in addition to technical competence.
I know that one respondent saw an increase in women in CEE classes. It's not across the board. We're still at less than 20%. I suspect it is because they aren't getting the encouragement early in their educational career and early in their college career. As a faculty adviser, I often have talks with students in crisis about their major choice because a Calc I test wasn't great. I spend the time to work with the student to reflect whether it was just a bad exam or if there is a deeper problem. Both answers are acceptable. But I remember watching a former advisee who changed from CEE to social work and saying to my colleague how proud I was of him as he graduated. My colleague thought he had stepped down in life and should have stuck it out because an engineer was more important. Happiness and satisfaction wasn't a consideration.
Women need to be mentored to be better advocates for themselves, but men and corporate cultures also need to be seriously examined. Societal messages also need to be examined. As noted recently in a higher-education meme, women and minorities need white men to note that bias exists and that we should all be working to reduce these biases. While the meme was in relation to teaching reviews, it applies across the board.
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Shirley Clark Ph.D., P.E., D.WRE, F.EWRI, M.ASCE
Professor
Penn State Harrisburg
Middletown PA
Penn State HarrisburgProfessor
Original Message:
Sent: 05-03-2017 16:57
From: Particia Harburg-Petrich
Subject: Female Engineers
I have been practicing structural engineering for over 10 years. While there were many female engineers at my level when I started, I see very few women at the management level. Is this something others are also seeing? What can we do to narrow this gap and create a more equitable engineering community? I'm interested in both long term strategies and steps we can take today to create positive change.
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Particia Harburg-Petrich A.M.ASCE
Associate Principal
Burohappold
Santa Monica CA
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