Dr. Vanarelli,
Echoing what Mr. Yance said, the cartoon I shared is meant to be a simple illustration that helps to differentiate the core concepts of equality and equity, and I think it conveys these concepts clearly if we refrain from overanalyzing it for other factors. The definitions of those two terms quoted in this thread by Dilip Barua summarize the concepts well, too. I thought clarifying these definitions on their own might help, so as not to conflate them with sociopolitical ideologies.
Of course the factors you mentioned such as skin color, age, and many others do come into play when we move beyond simple cartoons and into the real world.
I'd like to think that we, as engineers, seek to identify problems and then design solutions that will benefit the public and the planet. It is important to note that life is not a zero-sum game, and seeking the good for a client, a coworker, or an underserved community does not have to mean sacrificing on our own end.
In response to your question, "how will you achieve equity?" I don't have a neat answer that will fit into this thread, because inequities are huge issues that we face as a profession, as a country, and as a global community. But we need to start somewhere, and from what I have read, ASCE seems to be starting by acknowledging that 1) there are inequities in how the profession operates and in how our work affects communities where we design/construct; 2) these inequities are harmful; 3) we should figure out the best actions to take to mitigate this harm. The future step 4) would be to implement these best actions.
If I'm reading your questions correctly, most of your hesitancies revolve around #4; is that a fair assessment? ASCE, and society at large, are still trying to figure out what those best actions are and you'd like to make sure they're good actions. I agree, I'd like them to be good too. Nowhere does ASCE imply that they are going to start advocating for a communist society. I don't see how any of these first 3 items are controversial, as they do correlate with the goals of the engineering profession.
Thank you,
Katie
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Kathryn Little, EIT, A.M.ASCE (she/her)
Water Resources Engineer
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Original Message:
Sent: 12-28-2021 06:30 AM
From: Mark Vanarelli
Subject: Equality and Equity in Engineering
Ms. Little: Thank you for your comments. I think that what you present is a scenario of a very slippery slope. But how will you achieve equity?
You have presented a cartoon to represent real life and the real world, but what does it really represent. On the surface the cartoon is quite simplistic. Three individuals are viewing a baseball game. Each individual is of varying height. All are people of color. So, the cartoon is not representative of the population. They are all wearing different clothes. Based on their clothing, they appear to differ in age: One is possibly an adult, the other a teenager and the other a child. So, this would explain the differences in height. They will also differ in educational level. Although they are at the same place (e.g., a baseball game), they differ in many other attributes. So, why did the adult give his box to the child? Did he choose to give the child his box? Or was he coerced into giving his box away. How did one achieve equity? Was it by force? Does it matter? I think that it does.
This is the fundamental problem with equity, that is, how are these measures achieved. The definition of equity does not detail how it will achieve these measures. Also, who will decide what is equitable? Will it be a single individual or will it be a committee or group of individuals? What qualifies them to be judges?
There is a lot to contemplate here. ASCE is considering changes to its program criterion to incorporate equity concepts. Who will teach these courses? Will it be a professor of engineering, social sciences, liberal arts or Marxism (aka, socialism, communism, fascism, etc.?) What will be the measure of success in these courses?
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Mark Vanarelli Ph.D., P.E., P.G., BCEE, F.ASCE
Department Head of Civil Engineering & Associate Professor
Westminster CO
Original Message:
Sent: 12-26-2021 09:00 PM
From: Kathryn Little
Subject: Equality and Equity in Engineering
Dr. Vanarelli,
Thank you for your thoughtful post. I agree that the CE profession should not be promoting an ideology, but I do not believe that the inclusion of DEI statements and goals constitutes promoting Marxism as you imply. As you summarized, equality only works if everyone starts from the same place, and in reality we do not all start from the same place. Civil engineers come from a broad range of backgrounds that strengthen the profession by bringing a wonderful variety of perspectives and experiences to the field.
Society already makes some accommodations when people do not start at the same baseline. As a simple example, we have screen readers and other tools for people who have vision difficulties, dyslexia, or other conditions that prevent them from easily reading a screen. We don't ask these people to somehow earn screen readers; the value of providing such a tool and bringing the playing field closer to level is inherent and obvious. In an "equality only" scenario, we would provide written text to everyone and say "tough luck" to those unable to read it. That would be not only unjust but also detrimental to society, because it would prevent people from contributing in many ways. Providing tools and resources to help level the playing field - equity - enables people to help themselves and others.
From what I have seen, DEI statements and goals do not seek to promote an ideology. They simply note that we all come from different backgrounds, and they work toward enabling everyone to contribute where historically they may have been prevented or discouraged from doing so.
I'll leave this comic which I have seen many times and which shows the benefits of equity in a fun way. The tallest man didn't earn his height (how would one earn height?), but he has it anyway. The child on the right didn't have some moral failing by being small, he didn't fail to work hard enough to grow tall, but there's a fence in his way anyway. It does the man more good in the long run to give the child his box to stand on, because they all get more out of the experience.
Would be interested to hear your thoughts.
Thanks,
Katie Little
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Kathryn Little, EIT, A.M.ASCE (she/her)
Water Resources Engineer
Original Message:
Sent: 12-23-2021 02:39 PM
From: Mark Vanarelli
Subject: Equality and Equity in Engineering
DEI or Diversity, Equity and Inclusion statements have been incorporated into ABET criteria and ASCE's program criteria. Please take some time to look at the ABET website. Specifically, look at the definitions of DEI. Also, do a little homework and check out the definitions of DEI at other websites. In particular, the definition of "equity". I know we all grew up with an understand of the concept of equality. In fact, I took vows to ensure and defend equality in the profession and the workplace. But the term "equality" is being replace with the term "equity". Unfortunately, Equity is not Equality and really mean something else entirely. One description that I found enlightening from the Annie Casey Foundation website ( Equity vs. Equality and Other Racial Justice Definitions - The Annie E. Casey Foundation (aecf.org)), says that " Equity involves trying to understand and give people what they need to enjoy full, healthy lives. Equality, in contrast, aims to ensure that everyone gets the same things in order to enjoy full, healthy lives. Like equity, equality aims to promote fairness and justice, but it can only work if everyone starts from the same place and needs the same things". I would point out that giving people what they need is not the same thing as people earning it. Also, no one starts at the same place, as Dr. Thomas Sowell has written. This reminds me of something I read at university 40 years ago which was "from each according to his ability and to each according to his needs" which is a quote from the Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx. To say the least, I am deeply concern about this new language (i.e., equity) as it may be incorporated into our ASCE's program criterion. This new language has been introduced largely by Academia. I don't think that the CE profession should be promoting an ideology. I think that we should also find some time to participate in these committees as the future of our graduates depends on it. Thank you for your time. Dr. Mark J. Vanarelli
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Mark Vanarelli Ph.D., P.E., P.G., BCEE, F.ASCE
Department Head of Civil Engineering & Associate Professor
Westminster CO
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