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Record Document standards or guidelines?

  • 1.  Record Document standards or guidelines?

    Posted 03-29-2019 03:02 PM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 03-29-2019 03:01 PM
    Seeking input on the existence and use of standards or guidelines on the creation and management of record ("as-built") documents for horizontal/subsurface infrastructure (water, wastewater, gas, etc).  Thanks.

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    Alan Stadler M.ASCE
    Wade Trim
    Shaker Heights OH
    (216) 751-0118
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  • 2.  RE: Record Document standards or guidelines?

    Posted 03-30-2019 08:55 AM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 03-30-2019 08:54 AM
    Alan:

    Standard Guidelines for the Collection and Depiction of Existing Subsurface Utility Data (ASCE-38-02).  Contact Diane Swecker, Director ASCE-UESI regarding the development of as-built standards.

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    John Segna P.E.,P.E.,F.ASCE
    Hanover MD
    (703)795-5613
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    Original Message


  • 3.  RE: Record Document standards or guidelines?

    Posted 03-30-2019 10:43 AM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 03-30-2019 10:43 AM
    Since information is commonly stored online, you may want to see standard drawing criteria as created by ESRI, AUTOCAD users, etc.

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    David Hughes M.ASCE
    Modernizing Distribution
    Parker CO
    (215)620-6088
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    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: Record Document standards or guidelines?

    Posted 03-30-2019 08:55 AM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 03-30-2019 08:55 AM
    The requirements of as-built records, including drawings, should be specified in the contract specifications. In general, they should be maintained by the contractor and reviewed by the owner or owner's rep periodically. Certain payment clauses should be implemented to enforce such requirements. The format, either red-lined hard copy or CAD, are set forth by the owner (or owner's rep).

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    Chun-Wu Lee M.ASCE
    Silver Spring MD
    (301) 236-9507
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    Original Message


  • 5.  RE: Record Document standards or guidelines?

    Posted 03-31-2019 08:45 AM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 03-31-2019 08:45 AM
    You want "As Built" drawings, you must see to it that the information is gathered during construction yourself - every day - or it will not happen.

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    Hans H. Coucheron-Aamot
    [Retired]
    Albuquerque NM
    (505) 897-2554
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    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: Record Document standards or guidelines?

    Posted 04-23-2019 01:27 PM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 04-23-2019 01:27 PM
    I'm late to the party...but what Mr. Coucheron-Aamot said is the golden rule regarding gathering the data itself. 

    Regarding keeping the data...is an a age-old dilemma.  I am seeing greater-and-greater empathy regarding even caring about record drawings.  Some of this may because I am seeing unprecedented staff turn-overs with agencies/companies.  As my old boss said, "When you don't know much, and aren't going to be around long,  you don't likely care much."

    I was asked to create record drawings for a very large project we designed (but we didn't perform the construction management).  Another firm charged millions of dollars to oversee the construction, keeping virtually no records as far as I can tell.  For instance, after 2 years of foundation construction,  not a single log  was made for even one of one the many hundreds of piles which were constructed in complicated soil conditions.  All of this was omitted, in spite of the contract requirements for both the Contractor and the CM firm, as mentioned by Mr. Lee in this thread.

    The owner was totally happy with this record-keeping approach-until a few things started to go wrong in performance a few years after the project was completed and the "record drawings" were  tossed in a forgotten vault.  But by then everyone at the agency associated with the project had moved-to new,  higher-paying jobs, and the contractor had long-since left town.  So we had to dig things up;  Guess what, we found "short cuts galore!" 

    There are a lot of fancy ways to keep record drawings--but many highway and bridge projects are much simpler than say a high-rise building.  Nevertheless, like many, we've had poor luck updating fancy drawings created with fancy software--often by multiple subcontractors---some who merge or go out-of-business--all of which have been pressed for price by pressure from the owner in the first place. 

    Meanwhile the software is changing with each season of the year.  And the owner typically is hesitant to pay for anything after the final design plans are created.

    So I'd say even creating record drawings using a red-pen--or a PDF comment, is a lot better than nothing.  Protect these for future use.

    As they say, "The shortest pencil is better than the longest memory". 


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    Scott Onishuk M.ASCE
    Santa Barbara CA
    (805)563-0788
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    Original Message


  • 7.  RE: Record Document standards or guidelines?

    Posted 04-23-2019 02:27 PM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 04-23-2019 02:27 PM
    If the Contractor is working, an Inspector (not just a passive "Observer") should be on the job.

    The best practice is for the superintendent and the inspector to get together at the end of each day and agree on what was done that day and note it in their respective diaries and record construction plan sets. This also makes it easy to agree on the monthly progress payments.

    CAD drawings is another subject in itself. Most that I have seen have been an unbelievable mess, decipherable only to the person who drew them, with layers upon layers of frozen and hidden obsolete or irrelevant information.

    There should be a standard paragraph in the Design Professional Agreements, that CAD drawing deliverables be provided with no frozen or hidden layers, so that "what you see is what you get," and can be worked with by the Owner or its other Agents..

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    Hans H. Coucheron-Aamot
    [Retired]
    Albuquerque NM
    (505) 897-2554
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    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: Record Document standards or guidelines?

    Posted 04-24-2019 04:52 PM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 04-24-2019 04:52 PM
    As much as you may not like having to get government permits or approvals for a project, the agency may have retained copies of the pre-construction plans and specs submitted.  No guarantee that is how it actually got built, but may be the best information you can find if other records are lost or irretrievable.  Depending on the agency and type of project, there may also be inspection records or even post-construction verification documents.

    "The shortest pencil is better than the longest memory" - now those are some words of wisdom.

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    Donald Stursma
    Pella IA
    (641)621-1613
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    Original Message


  • 9.  RE: Record Document standards or guidelines?

    Posted 04-24-2019 10:05 AM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 04-26-2019 06:06 PM
    I might add to the discussion that with the advent of Virtual Reality and Augmented Reality, you may encounter a GIGO (Garbage In, Garbage Out) situation. If one desires to utilize the latest technologies to ones' benefit, one must utilize the most accurate information available. As-built records must be the most accurate possible. In the underground utilities world, many feel like they are "burying their mistakes." Well, those "mistakes" and all other modification from what the design plans dhoe must be reflected on the as-built drawings, in detail I must add, or future generations will suffer.

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    Al Field Aff.M.ASCE
    President
    Al Field & Associates
    Phoenix, AZ
    602-616-3618
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    Original Message


  • 10.  RE: Record Document standards or guidelines?

    Posted 04-24-2019 10:07 AM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 04-24-2019 10:06 AM
    My best anecdote is from one project where the City decided to do the inspection but my firm was still responsible for the Record Drawings (don't ask!). With the construction complete, we requested final payment and the City refused since we had not provided Record Drawings, which we had not since the City had not provided us with any mark-ups because they had not kept any.
    I told the City inspector, "What the heck, Jose; you know better," and he replied, "I know, but I could not get anybody to order me to do it!"
    And so it goes in the real world, but they finally agreed to release our final payment anyway.

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    Hans H. Coucheron-Aamot
    [Retired]
    Albuquerque NM
    (505) 897-2554
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    Original Message


  • 11.  RE: Record Document standards or guidelines?

    Posted 04-25-2019 11:38 AM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 04-25-2019 11:37 AM
    I started in the Engineering/construction business in 1953. While attending a major engineering evening school I initially spent four years in hands on Rebar Fab as a bender operator and OH crane operator.  Subsequently, I moved into the Steel Company's "Engineering office where I played a major role in detailing Rebar and shop interface for four more years. In 1961, I went to work for one of the largest engineering companies at the time starting on the board  and after three years I was transferred to the engineering department and shortly thereafter I was given continual Supervising Structural assignments. Most of these assignments were involved with all kinds of steel mill, industrial facilities, chemical plants, pharmaceutical production plants, Nuclear Power plants, etc. mostly in additions and renovations to existing structures. Very few were "green field"  One of my few "Green Field " supervising structural assignment was a large, two unit Nuclear Station and two 3  miles of deep circulation water tunnels, terminating one mile under the Atlantic ocean.  I officially retired in 1999 but stayed fairly active as a Consultant along the same lines, tapering off a few years back.

    Therein lies the rub. 

    From the start I (we) were faced with the poor to unknown existing, referenced or not, drawings, what ever indicating what was in the ground in the terms of "every thing", including buried high voltage power lines.  We spent hours and hours searching for existing information, even of the slightest help.  I personally spent many hours and days going thru file drawers, rolls and rolls of unorganized prints, tracking down present and past plant employees to see if they could shed any light on why and how structures were modified.  And of course there were no Calculation for the initial structure(s) let alone the mysterious structural alterations.

    My first course of action was, what ever info we found it was referenced right on the drawing where the interface occurred  and in an index so the next poor souls would at least  have a shot of know something of the past. Also calculations that previously seem to be the owned by the designer where collected and bound and given to the Owner, where ever they are finally stored/recorded?  Which brings up the point that the Owners need to have a regerious recording/storage approach and means of indexing/recovery other than to send them to some plant basement.
    In the engineering/construction business I found  over these 60 years plus) that not too many Owners what to pay for the time needed to record the variations that, no mater what occur, from the Design Info (including specs).  Of course that is different in the Nuclear Power Plant and related Facility business where every minute variation is painfully noted, reviewed and finally so noted and mandated by the Gumit.

    So, good luck on getting the "As-Built" information recorded for the future poor soul that will be stuck with the same lack of critical, historical design and construction features that will come his/her way.

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    Allen Hulshizer P.E.,F.ASCE
    Consulting Structural Engineer
    Chalfont PA
    (215)8872838
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    Original Message


  • 12.  RE: Record Document standards or guidelines?

    Posted 04-25-2019 12:44 PM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 04-25-2019 12:43 PM
    Great points from an experienced professional!!

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    Al Field Aff.M.ASCE
    President
    Al Field & Associates
    Chair, APWA UPROW Committee
    Phoenix AZ
    602-616-3618
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    Original Message


  • 13.  RE: Record Document standards or guidelines?

    Posted 04-26-2019 10:44 AM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 04-26-2019 10:44 AM
    My experience has been that it is not so much the Owner that does not want to pay for the additional work required to prepare Record Drawings, and the work in fact is generally not "additional" but a requirement of the Agreement. It is just not being done.
    This is on the Design Professional, not the Owner, who relies on the Design Professional to know and provide professional services.

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    Hans H. Coucheron-Aamot
    Retired
    Albuquerque NM
    (505) 897-2554
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    Original Message


  • 14.  RE: Record Document standards or guidelines?

    Posted 04-26-2019 09:30 AM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 04-26-2019 09:29 AM
    There are things that are not certifiable, so I exclude them in my certification. Unless you were present and watched every item being constructed and have product quality certifications, you can't certify it. You can't certify to the quality of construction. You can only certify as to what you can see. Below is a certification I use and modify for each project:

    I.                Certification:
    The infrastructure installed in PROJECT consisted of potable water lines (including fire hydrants), sewer lines (including pump station and forcemain), electrical boxes and lines, storm sewers, storm inlets, stormwater detention ponds, curbing and asphalt pavement section.  COMPANY prepared a Record Drawing based on our field survey of some of these items. Neither material used or quality of construction were verified. This certification is to the storm drainage structures and pipes, including sizes (where shown), horizontal and vertical locations, stormwater detention ponds, curbing and asphalt pavement surface at the time of the survey.

    This certification is based only on visual observation at the surface.  A storm drainage tabulation is provided on the Record Drawing by COMPANY sealed by SURVEYOR, RLS, dated DATE, showing the design and constructed sizes, with length, slope and elevations comparisons.  The public roadway is currently ready to receive the asphalt surface layer.

    I hereby certify that I am a licensed professional engineer in the State of STATE, and to the best of my knowledge, information and belief, the infrastructure was constructed in general conformance with the plans and specifications, and according to the information provided on the Record Drawings.

    Some cities have their standard certifications, but we cannot sign those without some disclaimers. I usually totally rewrite them.

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    Mark Lee M.ASCE
    New Business & Engineering Development
    Site Engineering Consultants
    Murfreesboro TN
    (615) 890-7901
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    Original Message


  • 15.  RE: Record Document standards or guidelines?

    Posted 04-26-2019 10:53 AM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 04-26-2019 10:52 AM
    I have been in the engineering, inspection and construction fields from grunt to owner. What I found in the 50 plus years, was that field superintendents maintain their own as-builts. A highly experience superintendent was proud of the work his crew completed. His detail was almost always in much more detail than the "inspector", now site observer. The legal and professional liability groups only want there clients to "report and observe". Certainly not all construction inspection is like that, but most. 

    Some cities tried to place three (3) year maintenance bonds on projects because of poor inspection. The consultants didn't mind as it took some of the heat off of them. Contractors either, 1 didn't bid the projects, or 2 charged a substantial for the insurance and bonds, (paid up front). The bottom line was, if the owner requires full and accurate inspection, Place the work in a third party engineering firm, with full inspection rights and authority. 

    This creates two very important results, 1, the Design engineer will have more accurate bid documents; if the owner will pay for the cost of underground discovery of existing conditions and geology. 2, The inspection firm will Seal the As_Built product providing the completed asset.

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    Robert Hinton, P.E- Life Member ASCE
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    Original Message


  • 16.  RE: Record Document standards or guidelines?

    Posted 04-26-2019 05:26 PM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 04-26-2019 05:30 PM
    The "Observer" thing also is in line with "the Book," but what people forget is that the "the Book" was written by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, which has the full weight and resources of the Federal Government behind it. It is a different world. What actually happens is that at the Pre-construction Conference, a young lawyer from Legal gives a discourse about the procedures outlined in "the Book," and after the meeting the Resident Engineer invites the Superintendent to a cup of coffee at Dunkin' Donuts and tells him, "Now you can be good and do as I tell you, or we can go by "the Book." Which is it gonna be?" And a superintendent with any sense will say, "No Sir, don't do that; I'll be good!"

    Inspection by the Owner (City/County) usually is not that good., since the inspectors are not familiar with all that went into developing the project design, and neither they nor their immediate supervisors are likely to actually be held responsible for any construction defects that may later come to light. It is better that the Design Professional also do the construction inspection and be held responsible for the complete package from beginning to end, including the Record Drawings. This is no joking matter for a personally held consulting practice.

    For the professions, it is also good that their young learn from running actual projects in the field. Scholastic credentials are well and good, but only like a carpenter's belt full of tools. The only way to learn how to use those tools are the hard way, by using them in the field and suffering the consequences for any mistakes made.

    It is sad how unsure of themselves the young engineers tend to be these days from lack of actual field experience.

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    Hans H. Coucheron-Aamot
    Retired
    Albuquerque NM
    (505) 897-2554
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


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