Discussion: View Thread

Did you hear that the PE Exam is now going to be specialty-specific!?

No more breadth portion in the morning and depth in the afternoon.

What are your thoughts? Pros/Cons?

Source: https://ncees.org/ncees-updates-specifications-for-pe-civil-exams/#:~:text=NCEES%20has%20introduced%20new%20specifications,and%20Water%20Resources%20and%20Environmental.

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Daniel Bressler EIT, A.M.ASCE
Structural Engineer
Brooklyn NY
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If the exam is specialized, it defines a field of expertise.  Therefore, the license issued should be SE, GE, EE, or TE.  This discrepancy further complicates how we define our profession and undermines our ability to serve as generalists (leaders).

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Chad Morrison P.E., F.ASCE
Professional Engineer
Greenville RI
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-17-2023 12:10 PM
From: Daniel Bressler
Subject: UPDATES FOR ALL PE CIVIL EXAMS

Did you hear that the PE Exam is now going to be specialty-specific!?

No more breadth portion in the morning and depth in the afternoon.

What are your thoughts? Pros/Cons?

Source: https://ncees.org/ncees-updates-specifications-for-pe-civil-exams/#:~:text=NCEES%20has%20introduced%20new%20specifications,and%20Water%20Resources%20and%20Environmental.

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Daniel Bressler EIT, A.M.ASCE
Structural Engineer
Brooklyn NY
------------------------------

I think it's a bad idea to eliminate the breadth section. My discipline isn't directly represented on the exam and is more "breadth" -- people in my area of the Civil engineering design just have to pick a random depth section and learn a lot of new things for the exam. Some of my coworkers have done transportation, some of us did construction, and others did water resources; all of those apply to our daily design tasks. 

It seems like this decision was made with a really narrow mindset on what licensees do. There is so much overlap in our industry, and I think it's good for potential PEs to show proficiency in both general and depth areas. (There are also a lot of people who switch career paths within Civil after licensure. Now their test may not apply at all to their area of practice.)

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Heidi C. Wallace, P.E., M.ASCE
Tulsa, OK
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-17-2023 12:10 PM
From: Daniel Bressler
Subject: UPDATES FOR ALL PE CIVIL EXAMS

Did you hear that the PE Exam is now going to be specialty-specific!?

No more breadth portion in the morning and depth in the afternoon.

What are your thoughts? Pros/Cons?

Source: https://ncees.org/ncees-updates-specifications-for-pe-civil-exams/#:~:text=NCEES%20has%20introduced%20new%20specifications,and%20Water%20Resources%20and%20Environmental.

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Daniel Bressler EIT, A.M.ASCE
Structural Engineer
Brooklyn NY
------------------------------

I agree with Chad and Heidi.

Will there now be a land development PE? What would that test look like? That is one of the advantages to the PE is that you may not be specialized in a particular field like structural, but you are a professional generalist. Similar to other licensed professionals, like doctors and lawyers, some are specialists, and some are not. 

Heidi's point about the afternoon portion of the exam and people changing career paths. I started out in land development, mostly subdivisions, did utility relocation management for my counties transportation sales tax program, and now I am in the water/wastewater industry currently at the water companies water treatment plant. I sat for my PE while working on the sales tax program and learned a ton of transportation specific stuff to take the transportation section in the afternoon. There is a ton of overlap with disciplines, one of the things that drew me to Civil Engineering in college. 

This change could now lock people into a discipline within civil engineering that may not be what they really want and certainly make it more difficult for them to change career paths. I never planned to be in water/wastewater while in college or my early career, but I thoroughly enjoy the work that I do and the amazing people I get to work with in the industry.

This decision seems like it was done without much thought like allowing new graduates to take the PE exam before they have done any work in the industry.  

Daniel- how long have you been doing structural engineering? Are you 100% certain that SE is the professional licensure that you want? I notice you are still an EIT and per this change you are locked into SE for the rest of your career and even you want to change you would likely need to pay a tidy sum to take a different test and test pre courses. Maybe that is the goal? NCEES and others will make money off of people needing to take another test and prep course to change career paths.

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James Wilson P.E., M.ASCE
Engineer
Charleston Water System
Charleston SC
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-17-2023 12:10 PM
From: Daniel Bressler
Subject: UPDATES FOR ALL PE CIVIL EXAMS

Did you hear that the PE Exam is now going to be specialty-specific!?

No more breadth portion in the morning and depth in the afternoon.

What are your thoughts? Pros/Cons?

Source: https://ncees.org/ncees-updates-specifications-for-pe-civil-exams/#:~:text=NCEES%20has%20introduced%20new%20specifications,and%20Water%20Resources%20and%20Environmental.

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Daniel Bressler EIT, A.M.ASCE
Structural Engineer
Brooklyn NY
------------------------------

Seems that opposition to the idea is common. I think the breadth of a Civil Engineer's experience and training is important to our understanding of how the various elements work together. I can't imagine what I would cut out that hasn't been an important consideration at some point in my career.

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Daniel Murphy P.E., M.ASCE
Senior Project Manager
Tighe & Bond
Westwood MA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-17-2023 12:10 PM
From: Daniel Bressler
Subject: UPDATES FOR ALL PE CIVIL EXAMS

Did you hear that the PE Exam is now going to be specialty-specific!?

No more breadth portion in the morning and depth in the afternoon.

What are your thoughts? Pros/Cons?

Source: https://ncees.org/ncees-updates-specifications-for-pe-civil-exams/#:~:text=NCEES%20has%20introduced%20new%20specifications,and%20Water%20Resources%20and%20Environmental.

------------------------------
Daniel Bressler EIT, A.M.ASCE
Structural Engineer
Brooklyn NY
------------------------------

Thanks for sharing Daniel. I agree with whats been said by everyone here already.

From the beginning of one's career, there is a value to having a baseline understanding of all (or most) disciplines within the civil engineering space.

Later on, that knowledge is important in knowing how all parts of a project fit together.

A more specific exam could also cause concerns for people who later want to change directions in their career but now feel limited in their ability to do so, especially if undergraduate education paths change in response to the new licensure testing formats.

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Christopher Seigel P.E., M.ASCE
Civil Engineer
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-19-2023 12:34 PM
From: Daniel Murphy
Subject: UPDATES FOR ALL PE CIVIL EXAMS

Seems that opposition to the idea is common. I think the breadth of a Civil Engineer's experience and training is important to our understanding of how the various elements work together. I can't imagine what I would cut out that hasn't been an important consideration at some point in my career.

------------------------------
Daniel Murphy P.E., M.ASCE
Senior Project Manager
Tighe & Bond
Westwood MA

Original Message:
Sent: 10-17-2023 12:10 PM
From: Daniel Bressler
Subject: UPDATES FOR ALL PE CIVIL EXAMS

Did you hear that the PE Exam is now going to be specialty-specific!?

No more breadth portion in the morning and depth in the afternoon.

What are your thoughts? Pros/Cons?

Source: https://ncees.org/ncees-updates-specifications-for-pe-civil-exams/#:~:text=NCEES%20has%20introduced%20new%20specifications,and%20Water%20Resources%20and%20Environmental.

------------------------------
Daniel Bressler EIT, A.M.ASCE
Structural Engineer
Brooklyn NY
------------------------------

I think this has the least effect on Structural who don't always work with other subdisciplines but I know that for instance, dam engineering is technically structural and does have a lot of overlap with water and geotech.

I'm not sure why the idea was implemented but I do agree with everything that was said so far. This isn't even comparable to undergraduate programs that have specialization within the degree. Even in those programs, you are still required to take all subdisciplines of civil engineering. Additionally, collaborating with other fields, (for me structural with geotechnical) will be impacted because there is a lot less base level of shared knowledge. 

Is this the start of breaking civil engineering into 5 different degrees?

I'm be curious if anyone can share some of the positives of this.

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Daniel Bressler EIT, A.M.ASCE
Structural Engineer
Brooklyn NY
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-19-2023 01:40 PM
From: Christopher Seigel
Subject: UPDATES FOR ALL PE CIVIL EXAMS

Thanks for sharing Daniel. I agree with whats been said by everyone here already.

From the beginning of one's career, there is a value to having a baseline understanding of all (or most) disciplines within the civil engineering space.

Later on, that knowledge is important in knowing how all parts of a project fit together.

A more specific exam could also cause concerns for people who later want to change directions in their career but now feel limited in their ability to do so, especially if undergraduate education paths change in response to the new licensure testing formats.

------------------------------
Christopher Seigel P.E., M.ASCE
Civil Engineer

Original Message:
Sent: 10-19-2023 12:34 PM
From: Daniel Murphy
Subject: UPDATES FOR ALL PE CIVIL EXAMS

Seems that opposition to the idea is common. I think the breadth of a Civil Engineer's experience and training is important to our understanding of how the various elements work together. I can't imagine what I would cut out that hasn't been an important consideration at some point in my career.

------------------------------
Daniel Murphy P.E., M.ASCE
Senior Project Manager
Tighe & Bond
Westwood MA

Original Message:
Sent: 10-17-2023 12:10 PM
From: Daniel Bressler
Subject: UPDATES FOR ALL PE CIVIL EXAMS

Did you hear that the PE Exam is now going to be specialty-specific!?

No more breadth portion in the morning and depth in the afternoon.

What are your thoughts? Pros/Cons?

Source: https://ncees.org/ncees-updates-specifications-for-pe-civil-exams/#:~:text=NCEES%20has%20introduced%20new%20specifications,and%20Water%20Resources%20and%20Environmental.

------------------------------
Daniel Bressler EIT, A.M.ASCE
Structural Engineer
Brooklyn NY
------------------------------

i have been a PE for 35 years.  I have had the opportunity to practice as a generalist and specialist in several areas. Similarly we have all taken classes in different areas as part of our schooling. I think this places unnecessary specificity on engineers and limits our opportunities to grow and work in a changing world.  

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Tracy Dubcak P.E., M.ASCE
PRESIDENT
Providence Environmental Consulting, Inc
Georgetown TX
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-17-2023 12:10 PM
From: Daniel Bressler
Subject: UPDATES FOR ALL PE CIVIL EXAMS

Did you hear that the PE Exam is now going to be specialty-specific!?

No more breadth portion in the morning and depth in the afternoon.

What are your thoughts? Pros/Cons?

Source: https://ncees.org/ncees-updates-specifications-for-pe-civil-exams/#:~:text=NCEES%20has%20introduced%20new%20specifications,and%20Water%20Resources%20and%20Environmental.

------------------------------
Daniel Bressler EIT, A.M.ASCE
Structural Engineer
Brooklyn NY
------------------------------

I think it is a bad idea to eliminate the general section.  It is good for all engineers to have general knowledge of the field, also no one can predict where their career will take them in 10 years.  It seems to be short sighted.

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Michael Kobbe P.E., M.ASCE
Estimating Manager
Pearl River NY
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-17-2023 12:10 PM
From: Daniel Bressler
Subject: UPDATES FOR ALL PE CIVIL EXAMS

Did you hear that the PE Exam is now going to be specialty-specific!?

No more breadth portion in the morning and depth in the afternoon.

What are your thoughts? Pros/Cons?

Source: https://ncees.org/ncees-updates-specifications-for-pe-civil-exams/#:~:text=NCEES%20has%20introduced%20new%20specifications,and%20Water%20Resources%20and%20Environmental.

------------------------------
Daniel Bressler EIT, A.M.ASCE
Structural Engineer
Brooklyn NY
------------------------------

From what I can tell on the NCEES site, examinees select one civil sub-discipline at the start of the exam.  Long ago when I took the exam in the 1990s the outcome impact was not much different.  The afternoon exam presented about a dozen questions from all sub-disciplines and we chose several.  In fact, even though my career focus had been in water resources I selected one of the structural questions. It looked pretty easy, so why not choose that one.  I'll never know if that was the best choice but NCEES told my state board I passed the exam and I didn't need or want to know.  So now, I would have to answer all the water-resources questions including ones about activated sludge digesters, of which I was and still am blissfully ignorant. Skim-reading over the exam site, I think the state or territorial licensing board will receive the examinee's pass/fail simply for civil engineering.  Not-failing this exam is a basic, early-career milestone soon left in the rear-view mirror along with that handful of college years.  I might hurt some feelings out there, I understand; passing the PE was a big concern for me too.  Don't worry about it; spend your time getting boots dirty on a few construction sites and mastering some computer modeling and technical writing; that's what engineering is all about.

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Dudley McFadden P.E., BC.WRE, M.ASCE
Principal Civil Engineer
Roseville CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-17-2023 12:10 PM
From: Daniel Bressler
Subject: UPDATES FOR ALL PE CIVIL EXAMS

Did you hear that the PE Exam is now going to be specialty-specific!?

No more breadth portion in the morning and depth in the afternoon.

What are your thoughts? Pros/Cons?

Source: https://ncees.org/ncees-updates-specifications-for-pe-civil-exams/#:~:text=NCEES%20has%20introduced%20new%20specifications,and%20Water%20Resources%20and%20Environmental.

------------------------------
Daniel Bressler EIT, A.M.ASCE
Structural Engineer
Brooklyn NY
------------------------------

Definitely not a good idea.

While every licensed professional engineer has expertise in certain areas, such as civil, electrical, or mechanical, they are licensed as a professional engineer rather than a professional civil engineer or a professional electrical engineer. Every professional engineer has an ethical obligation to practice only in their areas of competence.

In Texas, engineers are not licensed by discipline. The primary discipline will be listed in the Board records based on what is indicated on the application. If an engineer has expertise in another discipline and can submit sufficient evidence of competency in that discipline, the Board can list a second or third discipline in the records¹. Several states currently have separate PE licenses for each discipline, while others do not². The National Society of Professional Engineers asserts that the regulatory answer lies in the current licensing system, not in creating a new license for every discipline³. In addition to licensure, there are voluntary certification programs for various disciplines which involve examinations accredited by the Council of Engineering and Scientific Specialty Boards

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Vito Rotondi, (Retired)
Arch. S.E. P.E. Life M ASCE
Westmont Illinois
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-17-2023 12:10 PM
From: Daniel Bressler
Subject: UPDATES FOR ALL PE CIVIL EXAMS

Did you hear that the PE Exam is now going to be specialty-specific!?

No more breadth portion in the morning and depth in the afternoon.

What are your thoughts? Pros/Cons?

Source: https://ncees.org/ncees-updates-specifications-for-pe-civil-exams/#:~:text=NCEES%20has%20introduced%20new%20specifications,and%20Water%20Resources%20and%20Environmental.

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Daniel Bressler EIT, A.M.ASCE
Structural Engineer
Brooklyn NY
------------------------------

In a way I like it...I got my license 30 years ago and I specialized in Structures...And though I had to take lots of courses that didn't interested me (electrical, hydraulics, fluid mechanics, waste water treatment, etc), I would have liked to be tested for structural engineering only...I understood the principles of those subjects mentioned above, but I was not going to tackle those type of project and never stamp them...So for people like me who are sure about which area they want to practice, it will be good to have a choice with a Structural Engineer (SE)  License instead of the Civil Engineer one 

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Jose-Miguel Albaine P.E., M.ASCE
Consulting Structural Engr
JM Albaine Engineering, LLC
Waterford CT
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-17-2023 12:10 PM
From: Daniel Bressler
Subject: UPDATES FOR ALL PE CIVIL EXAMS

Did you hear that the PE Exam is now going to be specialty-specific!?

No more breadth portion in the morning and depth in the afternoon.

What are your thoughts? Pros/Cons?

Source: https://ncees.org/ncees-updates-specifications-for-pe-civil-exams/#:~:text=NCEES%20has%20introduced%20new%20specifications,and%20Water%20Resources%20and%20Environmental.

------------------------------
Daniel Bressler EIT, A.M.ASCE
Structural Engineer
Brooklyn NY
------------------------------

My interpretation based on reading information contained in the source provided at start of this discussion thread, is the general component of the exam remains the same, and the types of questions for the selected specialty component of the exam are simply being updated.  I did not see anything in the links provided that suggested the general part of the exam was being replaced or this was going to be a specialty only type exam in future. 

Source: https://ncees.org/ncees-updates-specifications-for-pe-civil-exams/#:~:text=NCEES%20has%20introduced%20new%20specifications,and%20Water%20Resources%20and%20Environmental.

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Randy Frank P.E., M.ASCE
Regional Manager
West Allis WI
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-17-2023 12:10 PM
From: Daniel Bressler
Subject: UPDATES FOR ALL PE CIVIL EXAMS

Did you hear that the PE Exam is now going to be specialty-specific!?

No more breadth portion in the morning and depth in the afternoon.

What are your thoughts? Pros/Cons?

Source: https://ncees.org/ncees-updates-specifications-for-pe-civil-exams/#:~:text=NCEES%20has%20introduced%20new%20specifications,and%20Water%20Resources%20and%20Environmental.

------------------------------
Daniel Bressler EIT, A.M.ASCE
Structural Engineer
Brooklyn NY
------------------------------

Below is a comparison between the current structural content and the content once the change goes into effect. They have made it only structural-related content for that one. The others have similar changes.

Current Structural:
project planning
means and methods
soil mechanics
structural mechanics
hydraulics and hydrology
geometrics
materials
site development
analysis of structures
design and details of structures
codes and construction

April 2024 Structural:
analysis of structures -- loads and load application
analysis of structures -- forces and load effects
temporary structures and other topics
design and details of structures -- material and material properties
design and details of structures -- component design and detailing

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Heidi C. Wallace, P.E., M.ASCE
Tulsa, OK
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-30-2023 10:04 AM
From: Randy Frank
Subject: UPDATES FOR ALL PE CIVIL EXAMS

My interpretation based on reading information contained in the source provided at start of this discussion thread, is the general component of the exam remains the same, and the types of questions for the selected specialty component of the exam are simply being updated.  I did not see anything in the links provided that suggested the general part of the exam was being replaced or this was going to be a specialty only type exam in future. 

Source: https://ncees.org/ncees-updates-specifications-for-pe-civil-exams/#:~:text=NCEES%20has%20introduced%20new%20specifications,and%20Water%20Resources%20and%20Environmental.

------------------------------
Randy Frank P.E., M.ASCE
Regional Manager
West Allis WI

Original Message:
Sent: 10-17-2023 12:10 PM
From: Daniel Bressler
Subject: UPDATES FOR ALL PE CIVIL EXAMS

Did you hear that the PE Exam is now going to be specialty-specific!?

No more breadth portion in the morning and depth in the afternoon.

What are your thoughts? Pros/Cons?

Source: https://ncees.org/ncees-updates-specifications-for-pe-civil-exams/#:~:text=NCEES%20has%20introduced%20new%20specifications,and%20Water%20Resources%20and%20Environmental.

------------------------------
Daniel Bressler EIT, A.M.ASCE
Structural Engineer
Brooklyn NY
------------------------------