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Civil Engineering Roundtable

  • 1.  Civil Engineering Roundtable

    Posted 01-11-2018 02:46 PM

    Join ASCE News' first Civil Engineering Roundtable. ASCE asked prominent members to discuss what issue will dominate the civil engineering industry in 2018. Their responses varied. What do YOU think will emerge as the most critical issue this year?

    To view the original discussion, visit:

    http://news.asce.org/ce-roundtable-what-issue-will-dominate-the-civil-engineering-industry-in-2018/



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    Tirza Austin
    Collaborate Coordinator
    ASCE
    Reston VA
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  • 2.  RE: Civil Engineering Roundtable

    Posted 01-18-2018 09:32 AM
    It is my hope that two related civil engineering topics will garner more attention this year and into the future:
    1) How shall we address development of realistic carbon-free and sustainable energy sources for the US and the world?
    2) How will we mitigate the effects on engineered systems from increasing carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, including increased earth surface temperatures and concomitant rise in sea level.

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    John Tauxe P.E., M.ASCE
    SR ENVIRON ENGR
    Los Alamos NM
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  • 3.  RE: Civil Engineering Roundtable

    Posted 01-20-2018 01:12 PM
    With the quality of our civil infrastructure declining in the world, civil engineers need to concentrate their advocacy time and energy on advocating for the creation of lasting infrastructure this is not required to be renewed every few years, rather than trying to get involved in the commentary about global warming or climate change, or the new buzzword carbon free.

    The best thing we can do to impact all these things, is to try to design, and encourage construction of systems with longer lifespans.  It is easy to see a less carbon impact of reconstructing roads once every 50 years, instead of once every 10-years.  It is better use of all our resources to concentrate on real things like creating homes that last more than 30 years.  Our fore-fathers designed buildings that lasted hundreds of years that people still live in.  In America, the standard is to assume that the houses will turn over every 30-40 years.

    It is better for us to spend time and effort attempting to design Cities that people can really live in, rather than Cities we go to in order to work.  Look at the Cities in Italy.  Even though they have a similar population to major US cities, they have much lower per capita energy usage.  Why?  Because people live, work, eat, buy groceries, etc. all within a short distance.  Walking is possible as a most of the time solution.  In the US, we don't think a 50 mile commute every morning is unreasonable.  Most people in Europe would laugh at someone willing to drive 20 miles to purchase groceries.  In the US, we do that without thinking about it.  Additionally, the buildings many of them live in are hundreds of years old, so farmland is not constantly being turned into subdivisions.

    You can probably tell that I am not a climate change advocate.  My problem is that climate change experts predicted a rise in water surface from 1950-2010 of over a meter.  Didn't happen.  If we could figure out how to remove the climatic effect of two active volcanos, we could remove the climatic effect of all the carbon used by humans.  I think developing effective point source solutions, which almost no one is working on, would be much more effective cost-wise than making each human reduce their individual carbon footprint.

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    Dwayne Culp, Ph.D., P.E., P.Eng, M.ASCE
    Culp Engineering, LLC
    Richmond TX
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  • 4.  RE: Civil Engineering Roundtable

    Posted 01-24-2018 11:31 PM
    Engineers cannot create infrastructure without taking into account the changes in the environment. If gravity changes then we must re-evaluate our designs to account for that change. If winds increase then we must again, re-evaluate our designs. Hotter temperatures will also mean a re-evaluation of our designs. Conditions always change - we live in a variable world. We as engineers must take on that responsibility to adapt our work and also do what we can to make the public aware of these very real changes.

    Your argument is twisting a political opinion to invalidate a fact that there is a change we must account for. In many cases this is a change we can slow down if not reverse because we are engineers. Regardless of who caused it, climate change exists. Does it really matter if people are behind the increasing levels of CO2? Greater minds than you or I agree on the data.

    Global surface temperature | NASA Global Climate Change

    You are entitled to a political opinion but our roles as engineers for the public good should transcend a view that conflicts with scientific fact. The entire existence of our profession is defined by scientific facts.

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    Yance Marti P.E., M.ASCE
    Civil Engineer
    Milwaukee WI
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  • 5.  RE: Civil Engineering Roundtable

    Posted 01-25-2018 01:59 PM
    No disagreement with the fact that Engineers cannot create infrastructure without taking into account the environment and the fact that conditions always change. Engineers should always design based on the latest available data, preferably noncontroversial data.

    Right now, the latest available data indicates the earth is experiencing climate change. Most agree the earth is experiencing a climate change cycle. Controversy exists over the cause of climate change. Evidence indicates that climate change is a natural phenomenon. The facts indicate that the earth goes through climate change cycles. Controversy has developed over the idea that the "recent" climate change cycle is caused by man. There is some evidence that indicates that man has exacerbated this climate change, but many view this as based mostly upon speculation and spinning of the facts. While most agree that the earth is experiencing climate change, not all agree that man has affected this cycle of climate change. This has led to a politically charged climate (no pun intended).

    I agree we don't need to get into what caused it. Civil Engineers need to focus on meeting the needs of people and not the controversy regarding climate change. Engineers need to focus on addressing the potential effects of climate change and not waste of energy, resources, and cost taking sides in the debate over the cause. Climate change in this case means designers need to consider more severe and possibly widespread natural hazards phenomena.
    Scientists and Meteorologists still have some work to do sorting out the changing weather patterns, let alone climate change. Long term weather prediction is still not an exact science.
    Addressing the hazards of rising seas, increasing storm intensity, earthquakes, availability of clean water, sustainable cities, transportation, and maintenance of farm land should be the focus of engineers. Don't get me wrong, engineers are people and may choose to be activists in the controversy of climate change, but the topic should not obscure what engineering and ASCE is all about, designing solutions to meet specific needs. Engineers were never meant to wear a generalist's hat.

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    Moses Jacobs P.E., M.ASCE
    Senior Architect
    EAPC Architects Engineers
    Williston ND
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  • 6.  RE: Civil Engineering Roundtable

    Posted 01-26-2018 04:38 PM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 01-26-2018 04:38 PM

    I thought that this forum was on "where we should focus our advocacy on" for the next few years.  I believe we should not have to advocate for something that we can't do much about.  Therefore, I focused on things that civil engineers do every year, and are constructed/redeveloped every year.  I think we need to fix our roads, bridges, cities to make them more robust and more sustainable.  If you don't think this is a problem, drive down I75 near Detroit; it demonstrates the need for all 3 items on my list.  This is a big wish list by itself.


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    Dwayne Culp, Ph.D., P.E., P.Eng, M.ASCE
    Culp Engineering, LLC
    Richmond TX
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  • 7.  RE: Civil Engineering Roundtable

    Posted 01-31-2018 02:37 PM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 01-31-2018 02:37 PM

    Manmade climate change is still a debate.  I have listed a few links that support this.  However, there are far more articles that can be found debunking manmade climate change by going to www.climatedepot.com.  Any individual will at least look at some of these articles.

    Why is this important to infrastructure?  There is a limited amount of resources to build and improve infrastructure.  Putting forth effort to combat manmade climate change is wasting these resources.

    Why is this important to civil engineers?  The public depends and trusts engineers to make their welfare better.  Engineers are supposed to be the, "smart persons."  Advocating and using a wrong theory will undermine the legitimacy of engineers in the public trust.

    The following are links to manmade climate change articles:

    http://www.climatedepot.com/2016/11/15/nasa-ignores-their-own-satellites-because-satellites-show-very-little-warming/

    http://www.climatedepot.com/page/5/?s=nasa

    https://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/who-is-steven-goddard/

     

    Mark Westover M.ASCE, PE, MS Environmental Engineering

    Silverdale WA






  • 8.  RE: Civil Engineering Roundtable

    Posted 01-24-2018 11:38 PM
    Dwayne:

    I am compelled to respond to and build on your post, even though some of my comments may sound self-serving.

    Your expressions such as "creation of lasting infrastructure," "people can really live in," and "without thinking about it" all point to a weakness in engineering (and other professions) thinking called design fixation, Einstellung Effect, reproductive thinking, etc. That is, our dominant mindset is, when faced with a challenge, ask how have we dealt with similar challenges? Then we deal with this one that way. We tend to have a fixed mindset.

    Instead, we need the discipline, knowledge, and tools to adopt an exploratory, creative, innovative mindset.

    For the past half dozen years, I have studied, written about, and spoken about ways in which engineers can change their mindset. My book Introduction to Creativity and Innovation for Engineers (Pearson, 2017) is one result. My ideas are not well received by the engineering practice community -- too different. For example, in rejecting my suggestion to speak about how they could be more creative/innovative, the leaders of one firm said that they were in the trenches 12 hours each day and did not have time for theoretical, ivory tower, aesthetic stuff. So much for my communication ability!

    Change is tough and I will persist.

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    Stuart Walesh Ph.D., P.E., F. NSPE, Dist.M.ASCE
    Consultant - Teacher - Author
    www.HelpingYouEngineerYourFuture.com
    stuwalesh@...
    219-242-1704
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  • 9.  RE: Civil Engineering Roundtable

    Posted 01-25-2018 01:52 PM
    NBC 10 I-Team: Providence Fire Department releases new photos of fatal fire
    WJAR remove preview
    NBC 10 I-Team: Providence Fire Department releases new photos of fatal fire
    The Providence Fire Department on Tuesday released new photos from a condemned house in Olneyville that was destroyed in a fatal fire.The photos document just how dangerous the conditions were at 110 Bowdoin St., from faulty wiring, space heaters, as well
    View this on WJAR >


    I discussed this further in a another post, but to make a point.. We need to curtail CO2 emissions, to serve the public good in the long term.  In the short term we need affordable energy to survive this winter and the next.  Affordable energy serves the public good.  Some of us are in better situations to weather that change better than others.

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    Chad Morrison P.E., M.ASCE
    Professional Engineer
    Greenville RI
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  • 10.  RE: Civil Engineering Roundtable

    Posted 01-24-2018 11:38 PM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 01-24-2018 11:37 PM
    Interesting discussion.  At the Scripps Aquarium you can find a display showing carbon spikes on a very cyclical basis, ongoing for millions of years. Is this from volcanic activity, or is there a larger phenomena such as changes in the planet's core changing the rotation axis or some other event?  What concerns me most is that constantly the plant has rapid onset of an ice age following each CO2 spike. According to records gathered for this study, we are way overdue for an ice age.  Historically much of the planet is then under ice during these time periods. In such events there is not enough land left for agriculture to sustain the world's population.  In a prudent world we would be encouraging people to have one to two children so we can reduce population to prepare for mass migrations. Reduction in world population would also solve many geolicialy short term problems, such as shortages in food, water, housing, and the destruction of habitats for the balance of the planets life. Even now, countries that have gotten their population under control, are experiencing a time of prosperity while those countries with expanding populations are suffering and are more likely to have violence and wars.   I think most people would agree that reducing population would put less pressure on resources and would reduce environmental impacts.  So, as a world, why are we not addressing what the optimum population should be, so that all people can enjoy a high quality of life?    
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    Barbara A.B. Salvini, P.E. 
    Barbara A.B. Salvini Engineering





  • 11.  RE: Civil Engineering Roundtable

    Posted 01-25-2018 01:56 PM
    As civil engineers, our mission should be to promote human flourishing by developing creative solutions to infrastructure problems that are reducing the productivity of the society we serve. The design of the Earth can and should be our model for this. For example: on earth, we observe increased plant growth with rising CO2 levels, increased plant growth begets more food for the populations. The Parallel: as civil engineers we have the opportunity in increasingly populated areas (hence increased funding available) to become creative in how we solve "flow" problems. Traffic Flow, Water Flow, Sewer Flow, Food Flow, etc....are all "flow" problems the civil engineer should undertake to solve with joy. Solving such problems is our calling. To advocate for population control (population control is born out of a certain type of world view), one must first accept defeat or admit an inability to solve a problem or promote a fear of an unknown. These are not the ideals of a civil engineer. WE rise up. WE solve. 

    A different world view may help provide perspective. A large population advocates the belief in an Almighty God who set the world in motion and who is intimately involved with the workings of the people he created and placed here. He told the original couple to be fruitful and multiply and to fill the earth and subdue it. As the population increases, He will hold His creation together and will provide people with the abilities to solve problems as they arise until the End of the Age, a time none of us knows nor can we predict it.

    The Lord has created the engineering mind to aid in the flourishing of people, not to restrict it. As we consider ways to be good stewards of the Earth we have been placed on, let us pursue ever more creative design solutions to aid the full function of family and society without restricting God-given freedoms.

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    Luke Antonich P.E., M.ASCE
    City of Gillette
    Gillette WY
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  • 12.  RE: Civil Engineering Roundtable

    Posted 01-24-2018 11:39 PM
    Agree.  I would also like to see a comprehensive resource where the public can get information on any home energy topic. We hear a lot about weather stripping,  insulation and solar panels but we also need to get the word out on passive solar improvements. There are websites with great information but the public is unaware.  I would like to see information on trombe walls, dark south facing walls, window overhangs, window film recommendations, deciduous trees, retractable patio and window awnings, all house fans, solar water radiators, south opening patio and sky light louvers, sunrooms, etc.   And then we need some mechanism to get the word out. 

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    Barbara A.B. Salvini, P.E. 
    Barbara A.B. Salvini Engineering





  • 13.  RE: Civil Engineering Roundtable

    Posted 01-24-2018 11:31 PM
    i really think engineers should focus on the counter structures to curb the horrific storms destroying the continent. and how to utilise their energ efficiently.

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    Denis Ssekamatte S.M.ASCE
    Kampala
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  • 14.  RE: Civil Engineering Roundtable

    Posted 02-01-2018 06:14 PM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 02-01-2018 06:14 PM
    ​Some valid points and some less valid ones have been made. Human impact on climate change is considered a fact by a consensus of scientists, but the details are definitely still open to debate.

    We need to build better structures with longer lifespans too. Not just because of the reduction in energy and carbon emissions, etc. but because they are falling apart before we get around to replacing them with the lifespans we build for now. Our government spends money to bomb our enemies, but our enemies don't need to bomb us...we just let our infrastructure fall apart. Too much of our infrastructure is several times older than its designed lifespan.

    We need to build sustainably and with a holistic approach. Historically we build things that hurt someone else. We pollute the water of the next town downstream. The industry on the river kills the fishing industry in the bay. The stormwater from the development on the hill floods the people in the valley. The Colorado River runs dry because we build golf courses in the desert and divert water to irrigate them. Everything is done to please the client, but we have a long history of not worrying about the social and environmental impacts to others who are not our client.

    Then we often get hired to solve the problems we created by the other things that we have previously done. We get hired to solve the flooding caused by the other project on the hill and treat the water for the pollution from upstream, etc. Perhaps we keep looking at only the small picture because it is good for business.

    Sadly while it seems like the environmental movement is some hippy-dippy thing invented in the 1960's, people were complaining about this over a hundred years ago. It just took a century of making a mess before we started to listen.

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    Ron Zagrocki P.E., M.ASCE
    Engineer
    Aliquippa PA
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  • 15.  RE: Civil Engineering Roundtable

    Posted 02-01-2018 08:55 PM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 03-26-2019 12:17 PM

    This thread has received a lot of activity. We want to remind everyone of its original intent, "What issue will dominate the civil engineering industry in 2018." Posts should be focused on this topic specifically, adding to our body of knowledge. We encourage members to stay focused on topic and maintain a respectful, professional tone.



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    Tirza Austin Aff.M.ASCE
    Collaborate Coordinator
    ASCE
    Reston VA
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  • 16.  RE: Civil Engineering Roundtable

    Posted 02-02-2018 02:13 PM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 02-02-2018 02:13 PM
    ​I apologize if my post comes off as a shotgun blast. I tend to read and respond to these things at the start of my work day and sometimes try to jam a lot larger body of thought into a few quick paragraphs.

    To refocus what I was trying to get at, I would say the umbrella term 'sustainability' is the greatest thing we face. Sustainability includes looking at what is often called the triple bottom line. This looks at social and environmental costs and benefits as well as the bang for the buck over the estimated service life of the solution. This is starting to be required on larger projects and incorporates many of the separate points that others have made. Rating systems like Envision are used in more and more projects.

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    Ron Zagrocki P.E., M.ASCE
    Engineer
    Aliquippa PA
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  • 17.  RE: Civil Engineering Roundtable

    Posted 02-02-2018 02:13 PM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 02-02-2018 02:12 PM
    I think 2018 will bring an awareness that yes, there is some effect on climate by CO2, but there are other, more pressing issues.  Destruction of aquifers worldwide, degradation of arable land, and Persistent Organic Pollutants (POPs) including endocrine disruptors are just a few.  Blaming CO2 for the world's problems (when it
    is actually helping feed the hungry) will increasingly take a back seat for the time being while other, actually cost-effective ways to provide power, will come further into the norm.  In the meantime, how many village wells will run dry because the aquifer fabric below has been permanently crushed, and how many dust bowls will be created before we realize what the real problems are?  China is still bringing two coal plants online per week and spewing the byproducts of solar cell manufacturing throughout its environment.

    "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain



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    Stephen Hemphill
    Rio Rancho NM
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