Discussion: View Thread

Equality and Equity in Engineering

  • 1.  Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 12-23-2021 02:40 PM

    DEI or Diversity, Equity and Inclusion statements have been incorporated into ABET criteria and ASCE's program criteria. Please take some time to look at the ABET website. Specifically, look at the definitions of DEI.  Also, do a little homework and check out the definitions of DEI at other websites.  In particular, the definition of "equity".  I know we all grew up with an understand of the concept of equality.  In fact, I took vows to ensure and defend equality in the profession and the workplace. But the term "equality" is being replace with the term "equity". Unfortunately, Equity is not Equality and really mean something else entirely.  One description that I found enlightening from the Annie Casey Foundation website ( Equity vs. Equality and Other Racial Justice Definitions - The Annie E. Casey Foundation (aecf.org)), says that " Equity involves trying to understand and give people what they need to enjoy full, healthy lives. Equality, in contrast, aims to ensure that everyone gets the same things in order to enjoy full, healthy lives. Like equity, equality aims to promote fairness and justice, but it can only work if everyone starts from the same place and needs the same things".  I would point out that giving people what they need is not the same thing as people earning it. Also, no one starts at the same place, as Dr. Thomas Sowell has written.  This reminds me of something I read at university 40 years ago which was "from each according to his ability and to each according to his needs" which is a quote from the Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx.  To say the least, I am deeply concern about this new language (i.e., equity) as it may be incorporated into our ASCE's program criterion.  This new language has been introduced largely by Academia.  I don't think that the CE profession should be promoting an ideology. I think that we should also find some time to participate in these committees as the future of our graduates depends on it. Thank you for your time. Dr. Mark J. Vanarelli



    ------------------------------
    Mark Vanarelli Ph.D., P.E., P.G., BCEE, F.ASCE
    Department Head of Civil Engineering & Associate Professor
    Westminster CO
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 12-26-2021 11:42 PM
    Equity is about the basics - what someone needs to enjoy a full, healthy life, i.e. food, shelter, opportunities to be happy, education. I support this amendment because no one should have to "earn" these things, especially in our great nation. Our current US, and developed world, systems for equality have resulted in harmful inequities that deprive our society of the benefit of all who could contribute.  If the net wealth in 2019 of a typical (median) white family in the US was $184,000, of a black family, $23,000, and of a Hispanic family, $38,000, how can we expect that disparity to allow for all kids to get a good education, become engineers, or their parents to be capable of showing them how to fill out college applications? Would $23,000 cover the cost and maintenance of the car(s) you own?  If you were referencing Marx as an example of why the recognition of equity is incorrect for ASCE, we should all first understand that the phrase probably didn't mean quite the same thing in its original German.  What's more, even the similar words used in the equity definition you cite should make us proud of being a democracy that actually gives everyone choices and opportunities. Building more equity into our Society, and country, will allow us to become even greater.

    Sarah J. Simon, P.E.
    Past President, Society of Women Engineers, Boston Section
    Chapter Director, Environmental Entrepreneurs


    ------------------------------
    Sarah Simon P.E., ENV SP, M.ASCE
    Founding Partner
    Ipswich MA
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 12-26-2021 11:44 PM
    Dr. Vanarelli,

    Thank you for your thoughtful post. I agree that the CE profession should not be promoting an ideology, but I do not believe that the inclusion of DEI statements and goals constitutes promoting Marxism as you imply. As you summarized, equality only works if everyone starts from the same place, and in reality we do not all start from the same place. Civil engineers come from a broad range of backgrounds that strengthen the profession by bringing a wonderful variety of perspectives and experiences to the field.

    Society already makes some accommodations when people do not start at the same baseline. As a simple example, we have screen readers and other tools for people who have vision difficulties, dyslexia, or other conditions that prevent them from easily reading a screen. We don't ask these people to somehow earn screen readers; the value of providing such a tool and bringing the playing field closer to level is inherent and obvious. In an "equality only" scenario, we would provide written text to everyone and say "tough luck" to those unable to read it. That would be not only unjust but also detrimental to society, because it would prevent people from contributing in many ways. Providing tools and resources to help level the playing field - equity - enables people to help themselves and others.

    From what I have seen, DEI statements and goals do not seek to promote an ideology. They simply note that we all come from different backgrounds, and they work toward enabling everyone to contribute where historically they may have been prevented or discouraged from doing so.

    I'll leave this comic which I have seen many times and which shows the benefits of equity in a fun way. The tallest man didn't earn his height (how would one earn height?), but he has it anyway. The child on the right didn't have some moral failing by being small, he didn't fail to work hard enough to grow tall, but there's a fence in his way anyway. It does the man more good in the long run to give the child his box to stand on, because they all get more out of the experience.

    Would be interested to hear your thoughts.

    Thanks,
    Katie Little

    ------------------------------
    Kathryn Little, EIT, A.M.ASCE (she/her)
    Water Resources Engineer
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 12-27-2021 10:06 AM
    Kathryn Little:  The comic is interesting as it shows 3 individuals watching a baseball game from over a fence.  The individuals are benefitting at the cost of the players.  
    The players are there to earn a living while entertaining spectators.  The spectators are willing to pay their fair share for the benefit of being entertained and while also paying to support the players who work in training to deliver a good performance.    
    So, the 3 individuals receive "equity" at the expense of the others.  

    Michael Mills

    ------------------------------
    Michael Mills P.E., S.E., M.ASCE
    Structural Engineer
    Tulsa OK
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 12-27-2021 10:35 AM
    The assumption that the children are not paying is a very strange take on the illustration. I am not sure why you make that assumption but perhaps assume that they are paying customers if that will help you understand?

    ------------------------------
    Yance Marti P.E., M.ASCE
    Civil Engineer IV
    City of Milwaukee
    Milwaukee WI
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 12-31-2021 10:48 AM
    Yance: It is an easy assumption.  Consider, why would someone pay to see the game, then go stand in the distant outfield to peer over a fence? 
    Ms. Little states that the comic is used to demonstrate the benefits of equity.  I made note that the 3 individuals are not paying. 
    The background of the comic shows the stands full of spectators.  At most ball parks spectators pay to get an entrance ticket, walk through a gate with a ticket taker, and also receive a seat.  Spectators also pay for snacks. 
    Are all of the seats situated with the same view?  No.  And if not all the same view and the best view, is someone going to raise the issue of equity and fairness?  Probably. 
    People like to complain and whine. 
    I had a boss who was an excellent engineer, the best I have known.  His favorite response to many questions was given with a twinkle in his eye, saying, "Who the hell ever told you life is fair?"
    It is unclear what you expect me to understand that is different from what I have expressed.

    ------------------------------
    Michael Mills P.E., S.E., M.ASCE
    Structural Engineer
    Tulsa OK
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 05-23-2022 11:05 AM
    When I first learned of this comic, I also deconstructed the fact that all three of these people were not in the stands and thus, didn't pay to see the game in the first place. I also zoomed in and noticed that all six characters (the three outside the fence and the three players shown) are all brown.

    Maybe the necessary context is that this three people watching from the fence are a family that could not afford tickets. Everyone else paid tickets and thus, got a seat in those stands to watch the whole game. These three, on the other hand, are having money problems and are only seeing the game until some form of security takes issue with their standing there. For me at least, the message about equity over equality is threefold; sports like baseball, regarding the teams at least, has always favored certain types of men; the classes that get to spend money on pastimes like sports is predominately white; and lastly, despite how correlated racism, sexism and classism are, not all minorities would even want a place in the sports industry if they simply had the money for it.

    At a level like this, equality would be about making sure all people have same access to this profession, but equity is about making sure all people who aspire to this profession have all the basic standards needed to be a part of it.

    ------------------------------
    Alexander Granato A.M.ASCE
    Student
    Bexley OH
    granato.3@...
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 12-27-2021 11:32 AM
    Good point!

    ------------------------------
    Roya Rostamian
    Principal Environmental Scientist
    Marietta GA
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 06-01-2022 12:16 PM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 06-01-2022 02:43 PM
    The challenge of attempting to substitute a thousand words of concept with an illustration and it happens to find its way to engineers (problem solving and root analysis kicks in).

    Change the illustration to a tall table with three (3) ice cream shakes in fifty (50) lbs tall slender metal containers with flanges bolted to the table due to the extremely strong winds that had blown away the stools. There were a few crates in the back. They only had 6 inch long non-bending metal straws (saving the planet) and a family simply trying to enjoy a shake and support a business. The store manager found a few delivery crates.  (Too many holes in this story, too. Not enough time in the day to fill.)

    LOL. You created an entire back story to deflect from the main point; however, you definitely identify the potential flaws in the illustration. There could be more to this fictional, yet probable story. This discussion points to the importance of differing perspectives, experiences, ideas and the ability to effectively communicate (which includes listening) them. One's personal truths are dependent upon time and experiences. When it comes to a single point or a single universal truth, geometry tells us that there are an infinite number of lines or perspectives to (or from) a single point. One person or one group cannot get to it alone. It may sound "pie in the sky", but only with a whole lot of us working together, openly and honestly, can we provide that picture that converges or brings us closer to a single universal truth. Even that may be superficial, given we would only be focusing on the physical.

    Challenge: There are an infinite number of points.
    Question: How do you eat an dinosaur (a two ton candy dinosaur)?
    Answer: One bite at a time.

    One should not dismiss their personal truth. Bring it to the table. That piece is part of a complete story.

    ------------------------------
    James Williams P.E., M.ASCE
    Principal/Owner
    POA&M Structural Engineering, PLC
    Yorktown, VA
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 12-27-2021 11:52 AM
    What a great cartoon. It really helped me appreciate the difference. I'm all for equity.

    ------------------------------
    Mitch Winkler P.E., M.ASCE
    Houston, TX
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 12-27-2021 11:52 AM
    It is interesting to read everyones opinion on this matter. The issue of Equity troubles me, because it "feels good" but has long term devastating affects on society.

    As has been pointed out in these comments, there is confusion on how to interpret equity versus equality. There has been an effort in society to change the definitions of words, causing confusion and creating great harm. My experience with equality is that equality is the opportunity to find success in life through hard fought effort. Equity on the other hand, desires to create the same outcome for everyone, no matter the effort. It is true that not everyone has the same starting point, however, through effort success is possible.

    In order for Equity to be the standard, someone (government, industry or otherwise) must take from someone who has and give it to another who has not, thus putting them on equitable ground. This causes the "taken" to feel cheated since what they have accomplished has been taken away. While at the same time this a tendency to cause the "receiver" to feel more embolden to obtain more from others which they themselves did not earn.

    The comic is a great example of what I am talking about, as you point out the man does not need his box and should "give" his box to the child (which is the right thing for the man to do, as he would be looking out for others and is a charitable act). Equity does not encourage the man to "choose to give" his box to the child, rather equity "takes" the box from the man and gives it to the child, because that feels correct. Be careful at who you promote to perform charitable acts, when those acts are not being performed by you. No matter who you are, you have more than someone else, why shouldn't you be forced to give up what you have? I prefer a society where people choose to help others on their own, rather than being compelled.

    I recently finished a course on bridge scour and by the end of the class I could feel the weight of the responsibility of engineers. Engineers have a lot to concern themselves with, just as it relates to good engineering and the importance of life and safety.

    In the old days there were a few engineers and too much work to do and so the engineers had to focus on the important life safety issues. Now we have a lot of managers of engineers with only a little work to do and so they want to discover new ways to feel good about their station in life (like DEI). I believe that ASCE should NOT spend precious time promoting DEI, rather they should stay to the basics of engineering and promote matters of life and safety. ASCE is following a path which will lead to the reduction of life and safety (think about it, engineers only have so much time to focus on any one task and if they are torn between engineering or DEI, one will lose in the end).

    My hope is that ASCE can turn from its current course and return to the important tasks of engineering.

    Brian Matthews, P.E.
    Hydraulics

    ------------------------------
    Brian Matthews A.M.ASCE
    CIVIL ENGINEER
    NEVADA DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
    Carson City NV
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 12-27-2021 12:30 PM
    Equity does not mean being forced to "give" someone a box, expecting all to achieve equally (yes there are excellent, tall basketball players, and excellent teachers and civil designers), or handing out free stuff.  This is about all of us watching to make sure that the same opportunities are available to all. 
    None of us lose by considering equity.
    And, as Miguel said, at the end of the day, equal work accomplishments should be treated equally.

    ------------------------------
    Sarah Simon P.E., ENV SP, M.ASCE
    Founding Partner
    Ipswich MA
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 12-27-2021 01:06 PM
    You have the definitions backwards: Equality means we all end up with the same outcome, and equity is that our system needs to allow the same opportunity so each may find success in life through hard fought effort.
    Your explanation of equality seems to imply that the outcome of my years of solid work, contributions, and team leadership should have been the same pay as the company president (who is often not even a civil engineer these days, just a takeover artist). Or at least the same pay as peers (not 70c on the $ because I'm a mom).

    The discussion should not be about individuals and who gets and does what.  Our Society is trying to say that we are all responsible for building a good and safe future for all the generations to come.  At present, without these small updates to our responsibilities, we are at risk of missing important talent and ignoring the factors that prevent our projects from withstanding the test of time (like the Florida condo).

    ------------------------------
    Sarah Simon P.E., ENV SP, M.ASCE
    Founding Partner
    Ipswich MA
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 12-27-2021 02:32 PM
    Two brothers in one family with access to the same resources and same parental love and responsibilities will have different outcomes. Achievements are the result of individual endeavors.

    ------------------------------
    Roya Rostamian
    Principal Environmental Scientist
    Marietta GA
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 01-06-2022 02:49 PM
    And luck. And societal inputs like college subsidies. Two people will never have the same experiences, I speak from experience.

    ------------------------------
    Tsee Lee A.M.ASCE
    New York NY
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 12-27-2021 03:24 PM
    Thanks for making my point, the definitions have been scrambled and confusion is raining cats and dogs. Please pay a little more attention to how the creators of Equity are using it, you will see that how Equity is being applied is how I defined it (determined outcome). I can see that you want fairness, that is a grand goal, unfortunately, it will never be accomplished through well meaning policy. Fairness must happen in the hearts of people.

    The way to avoid Florida is to focus on the proper application of engineering principles, nothing else matters, and that should be the main focus of ASCE.

    ------------------------------
    Brian Matthews A.M.ASCE
    CIVIL ENGINEER
    NEVADA DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
    Carson City NV
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 01-03-2022 03:46 PM

    It's interesting to read everyone's opinion on here, and I'm not sure how to feel...


    In my opinion and I'm going to keep it related to our profession, DIVERSITY is considering all people regardless of their differences and backgrounds. EQUITY isn't taking from someone to give someone else. It's simply offering the less privileged a helping hand (without any inconvenience to the privileged) to see past the barrier that has been in the way of all underprivileged people of color, people with disabilities, etc.  INCLUSION is allowing ALL people to give their best by providing an inclusive and comfortable environment, and that's why equity comes before inclusion, because equity will provide a fair opportunity based on each person's needs, and hence they'll perform their best.

    There are engineers who have gone to great high schools and had preparation all through their childhood to encourage them to get into this profession and who have also gone to prestigious colleges. But you also have the ones that tried to do it all on their own without any recourses and who have gone to underserved schools, ended up at a less prestigious college, and didn't have an engineer role model to look up to growing up. People grow up in very different backgrounds with either many resources or next to none, and end up being punished for not having anything, and that's quite frankly the work of our global society for many decades. Equity is a tool to help offset these disparities. 

    The hope that people will see the social disparities and act on them isn't a solution, and as a professional society members, we shouldn't JUST do what we're best at and build infrastructure, but use this platform to also help build a society that advocates for the ones that don't have a voice. 

    As a poc that moved to this country in 2014, how would have I EVER been able to have a voice right now and share my thoughts without the fear of being rejected or ignored if it weren't for the safe equitable and inclusive environment for which ASCE has been advocating.



    ------------------------------
    Abbas Kazan EIT, A.M.ASCE
    Civil Engineer
    Liverpool NY
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 01-02-2022 12:02 PM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 01-02-2022 12:02 PM

    Ms. Little:  Thank you for your comments.  I think that what you present is a scenario of a very slippery slope. But how will you achieve equity?

    You have presented a cartoon to represent real life and the real world, but what does it really represent. On the surface the cartoon is quite simplistic.  Three individuals are viewing a baseball game. Each individual is of varying height. All are people of color. So, the cartoon is not representative of the population. They are all wearing different clothes.  Based on their clothing, they appear to differ in age: One is possibly an adult, the other a teenager and the other a child. So, this would explain the differences in height. They will also differ in educational level. Although they are at the same place (e.g., a baseball game), they differ in many other attributes.  So, why did the adult give his box to the child?  Did he choose to give the child his box? Or was he coerced into giving his box away.  How did one achieve equity? Was it by force? Does it matter?  I think that it does.

    This is the fundamental problem with equity, that is, how are these measures achieved.  The definition of equity does not detail how it will achieve these measures.  Also, who will decide what is equitable? Will it be a single individual or will it be a committee or group of individuals? What qualifies them to be judges?

    There is a lot to contemplate here. ASCE is considering changes to its program criterion to incorporate equity concepts.  Who will teach these courses? Will it be a professor of engineering, social sciences, liberal arts or Marxism (aka, socialism, communism, fascism, etc.?)  What will be the measure of success in these courses?  

    ------------------------------
    Mark Vanarelli Ph.D., P.E., P.G., BCEE, F.ASCE
    Department Head of Civil Engineering & Associate Professor
    Westminster CO
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 01-02-2022 12:49 PM
    Prof. Vanarelli,

    Happy New Year.  Cogent thoughts and responses to the height of the boxes watching a baseball game.  I look forward to working with you on the preparation of the EDI Statement for AAEES.  I am putting a draft plan together now.
    Lilia

    ------------------------------
    Lilia Abron Ph.D., P.E., BCEE, NAE, Dist.M.ASCE
    President
    Washington DC
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 01-03-2022 11:31 AM
    It is worth noting that Kathryn Little's post includes a simple illustration and not a thesis. Analyzing it to the extent of skin color, age, etc is well beyond the point it was meant to convey. I fail to see the connection you make to Marxism or any other -ism. Equity in itself is a simple concept and can be found in all basic truths that we all agree on, here in the United States. It does help to equal the playing field in ways that it was assumed the mere mention of equality should but doesn't. I don't think it bears additional argument. I, for one, agree with the inclusion of equity. Some of the comments here show that it is sorely needed.

    ------------------------------
    Yance Marti P.E., M.ASCE
    Civil Engineer IV
    City of Milwaukee
    Milwaukee WI
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 01-03-2022 02:02 PM
    Yance: Dr. Vanarelli asked a very simply question that has not been answered.  "....how will you achieve equity?"

    ------------------------------
    Michael Mills P.E., S.E., M.ASCE
    Structural Engineer
    Tulsa OK
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 01-03-2022 03:06 PM
    The City of Milwaukee has taken the lead in developing a program for equity and inclusion. This ensures that all citizens are provided opportunities.

    https://city.milwaukee.gov/Equity-and-Inclusion/Racial-Equity

    ------------------------------
    Yance Marti P.E., M.ASCE
    Civil Engineer IV
    City of Milwaukee
    Milwaukee WI
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 01-10-2022 12:05 PM
    Dr. Vanarelli,

    Echoing what Mr. Yance said, the cartoon I shared is meant to be a simple illustration that helps to differentiate the core concepts of equality and equity, and I think it conveys these concepts clearly if we refrain from overanalyzing it for other factors. The definitions of those two terms quoted in this thread by Dilip Barua summarize the concepts well, too. I thought clarifying these definitions on their own might help, so as not to conflate them with sociopolitical ideologies.

    Of course the factors you mentioned such as skin color, age, and many others do come into play when we move beyond simple cartoons and into the real world.

    I'd like to think that we, as engineers, seek to identify problems and then design solutions that will benefit the public and the planet. It is important to note that life is not a zero-sum game, and seeking the good for a client, a coworker, or an underserved community does not have to mean sacrificing on our own end.

    In response to your question, "how will you achieve equity?" I don't have a neat answer that will fit into this thread, because inequities are huge issues that we face as a profession, as a country, and as a global community. But we need to start somewhere, and from what I have read, ASCE seems to be starting by acknowledging that 1) there are inequities in how the profession operates and in how our work affects communities where we design/construct; 2) these inequities are harmful; 3) we should figure out the best actions to take to mitigate this harm. The future step 4) would be to implement these best actions.

    If I'm reading your questions correctly, most of your hesitancies revolve around #4; is that a fair assessment? ASCE, and society at large, are still trying to figure out what those best actions are and you'd like to make sure they're good actions. I agree, I'd like them to be good too. Nowhere does ASCE imply that they are going to start advocating for a communist society. I don't see how any of these first 3 items are controversial, as they do correlate with the goals of the engineering profession.

    Thank you,
    Katie
    ​​

    ------------------------------
    Kathryn Little, EIT, A.M.ASCE (she/her)
    Water Resources Engineer
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 01-06-2022 04:24 PM
    Consider that the entire debate could have been avoided had the contract specified chain link.  (Neverminding the payment of admission argument.)

    ------------------------------
    Eric Pilcher P.E., M.ASCE
    Bonney Lake, WA
    eric.pilcher@...
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 12-27-2021 11:33 AM
    I agree with you. Professional goals are individual decisions. People have choices as to whether enter a certain profession or not! And individuals must enter a profession that they feel they can be most successful. Sometimes creating an equal field means blocking the best and brightest from entering a certain profession and also misleading the best and brightest from another field into a profession that does not suit them. Creating a false sense of equity will only produce mediocre misplaced workers. 

    For example, A short person will not be a good basketball player and a tall person will not be a good gymnast! Now equality means not preventing the short guy from playing basketball which is fair. But, equity means pushing the short guy into a basketball team by giving him unfair advantages. In the end, he will only be a burden on his teammates and his real talents will also be wasted!

    Roya Rostamian, REP
    President, Metro QMS LLC
    Atlanta, GA





    ------------------------------
    Roya Rostamian
    Principal Environmental Scientist
    Marietta GA
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 12-27-2021 04:35 PM
    I disagree; equity neither pushes people into jobs to which they are ill-suited nor prevents talented, hard-working people from reaching their goals. It doesn't mean forcing the short guy onto the basketball team or into the center position if he's no good at it or doesn't want to be there. It means allowing the short guy the opportunity to show he's actually a great point guard, instead of overlooking him without second thought on account of his height.

    Dropping the basketball metaphor, equity it doesn't mean taking jobs away from intelligent, hard-working engineers. It means expanding those opportunities to those who are just as intelligent and hard-working but had barriers in their way due to racial discrimination, poverty, poor local education, etc. Equity seeks to create a scenario in which I'm not only able to become an engineer because my parents made six figures and sent me to a fancy school. If I were bright and diligent but my parents were below the poverty line, I should still have access to a quality education and subsequently a fighting chance in job interviews. Sadly that is often not the case in our current educational and professional systems.

    ------------------------------
    Kathryn Little, EIT, A.M.ASCE (she/her)
    Water Resources Engineer
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 12-28-2021 10:34 AM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 01-06-2022 02:50 PM

    Kathryn,
    Being female, and minority I do understand the discrimination part, especially in the field of civil engineering. I had to fight my way up and at every step, I have faced discrimination!

    My experience has led me to believe that civil engineering is a white male-dominated business and I hope that these initiatives have an impact in changing that view. Even when women and minorities land a job, they often deal with ongoing discrimination within the workplace. And I have been an advocate of equality throughout my career. But, I do not believe equity will work in a capitalist society. 



    ------------------------------
    Roya Rostamian
    Principal Environmental Scientist
    Marietta GA
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 12-29-2021 07:08 PM
    I like your illustration of equity vs equality! I think it helps to clarify Dr. Vanarelli's points.

    ------------------------------
    Roy Andersen P.E., M.ASCE
    Civil Eng
    Hill Engineers Architects Planners Inc
    Dalton MA
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 12-27-2021 12:04 PM

    Reading the contribution of Mark Varanelli and responses from Sarah Simon and Kathrin Little, I will give my point of view as a Mexican professor, who lived in USA for five years and three years in Japan. DEI issues can be seen as cultural issues, that might affect the way of living of individuals who are used to think and act in the way there were taught by family and society. Sometimes it would sound as an intrusion or a change in the way of performing in our daily lives. However, I think that it is important to consider the benefit for ourselves, our family and our society, in order to get a better political, societal and professional development. I think that we should use both terms in word and action: EQUITY in the sense of promoting and giving the same opportunities for everybody to develop their abilities, including leveling of backgrounds, and EQUALITY at the time of recognizing efficiency and fairness when something is done or achieved.

    Adding to the example of the fence, I think that all of us has had the experience of being in contact with a worker that is very smart or has extraordinary specific abilities, that with a proper support could achieve more. It is not only a waste or loss for that person that could not reach all the potential, but also means a handicap for society.



    ------------------------------
    Miguel Perez Lara Ph.D., Aff.M.ASCE
    Professor
    Universidad Autónoma De Querétaro, México
    Santiago De Queretaro
    ------------------------------



  • 30.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 12-27-2021 03:04 PM
    The majority of employers in the United States are for-profit organizations. They cannot afford to lose money on accommodating individual employees to create a leveling field. They want top performers regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. And, that is fair equality. However, these employers pay their fair share of taxes and those taxes can fund equity projects. For example, scholarships to talented students from poor family backgrounds.  


    ------------------------------
    Roya Rostamian
    Principal Environmental Scientist
    Marietta GA
    ------------------------------



  • 31.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 01-06-2022 02:49 PM
    Relying on charity does not promote any wider goals. The ADA has proven that society can help out the lesser advantaged by doing more than we had done before. Too many people look at equity initiatives and see a zero-sum game. It may help to see that initiatives like the ADA expand the pot for everyone.

    ------------------------------
    Tsee Lee A.M.ASCE
    New York NY
    ------------------------------



  • 32.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 12-27-2021 03:05 PM
    Prof. Vanarelli,
    Thank you for this discussion.  I am the outgoing president of AAEES.  I am chairperson of the committee preparing our DEI statement. Would you work on my committee?  Hopefully, we can prepare the statement in 6 months.

    ------------------------------
    Lilia Abron Ph.D., P.E., BCEE, NAE, Dist.M.ASCE
    President
    Washington DC
    ------------------------------



  • 33.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 12-27-2021 07:17 PM
    Our profession serves Society.  When we improve our understanding of social issues, we can better serve.  So the question is: to what extent should that commitment be formalized in education?

    Buckminster Fuller promoted the concept of Spaceship Earth, that all we have are the limited resources we have on board.  This leads to the ultimate endgame where all resources are managed responsibly and divided equally.  One who subscribes to this model and ultimate goal in their professional practice demonstrates a care for the greater good.

    https://collaborate.asce.org/professionaltopics/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?GroupId=9265&MessageKey=c032c10c-4339-491e-a3a5-fa2c2b791bc6&CommunityKey=c95c7fc3-ed66-4208-8841-14604b5a3c32&tab=digestviewer&ReturnUrl=%2fbrowse%2fallrecentposts

    ASCE publishes an Infrastructure Report for individual states and the entire country.  An A grade for each state would be nearly impossible.  For each country in the world to have an A would be even more unrealistic.  I think if any of us are building a school... we want that school to be the best school.  But that best school will vary based on the needs of that community.  









    ------------------------------
    Chad Morrison P.E., F.ASCE
    Professional Engineer
    Greenville RI
    ------------------------------



  • 34.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 12-28-2021 10:14 AM
    Dr. Vanarelli has initiated a discussion on an important and timely, and in many ways long-standing, topic for our field.  The discussion contributions have largely focused on distinctions between the meanings of "equality" and "equity" in relation to opportunities for individuals to participate in our field.  Missing from the discussion has been the long-standing, though often not explicitly recognized, encounter with "equity" aspects of the projects in which we engage.  Equity in the project context refers to whose voices are heard and who gets to provide input into decisions related to infrastructure projects.  Because of the scale of infrastructure projects, people and communities are affected by them in many ways, whether the projects are undertaken by the public or private sector.  While infrastructure projects have enabled modern economies and have improved quality of life for many, there is no denying that there also have been negative impacts of infrastructure projects on people and communities whose voices and interests were not considered in the planning and design of the projects.  Understanding of the importance and methods for engaging project stakeholders, and trying to be equitable in considering the interests of those stakeholders, has advanced considerably in our field over the past several decades.  Continued advancement will be an ongoing process, informed by new knowledge and insights, such as those provided by recently heightened awareness of societal inequities.  In the November/December 2021 issue of Civil Engineering magazine, various dimensions of the relationship of equity and infrastructure are explored:   
    https://www.asce.org/publications-and-news/civil-engineering-source/civil-engineering-magazine/issues/novdec21 
    The case studies and perspectives of civil engineering professionals presented are educational and thought provoking; I encourage all to read them.  Stakeholders and questions of equity of representation are part of civil engineering projects.  This is why exploration of the concept of equity and its relevance to civil engineering is becoming a more explicit part of civil engineering education.

    ------------------------------
    David Dzombak, PhD, PE, Dist.M.ASCE
    Hamerschlag University Professor and Dept Head
    Dept of Civil and Environmental Engineering
    Carnegie Mellon University
    Pittsburgh, PA 15213
    dzombak@...
    ------------------------------



  • 35.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 12-29-2021 10:31 AM
    I agree. Our work rarely serves or affects only the client. I like to highlight the Institute for Sustainable Infrastructure's Envision rating system, which puts well-being, mobility and community at the top of the list (see page 5 of the introductory packet).  (full disclosure, I was Envision certified (ENV SP) but since I have retired, I have not kept up my credential). 

    In the ASCE Journal referenced above, one article points to the fact that engineering is done by people, with people, and for people, and we often make assumptions about who those people are. The voice of our entering engineers is laid out in the article "what does infrastructure have to do with social justice and equity"

    ------------------------------
    Sarah Simon P.E., ENV SP, M.ASCE
    Founding Partner
    Ipswich MA
    ------------------------------



  • 36.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 01-06-2022 02:48 PM
    Very good point. It can seem to some people that these discussions have little to do with engineering, but many civil engineering projects impact on people's lives and equality or equity or what-have-you will always enter into the equation. Someone mentioned to me recently Mayor de Blasio of NYC and his attempts to place the homeless in a high-income neighborhood. How do we house the unhoused? Where do we build the shelters or convert the hotels? Must low-income neighborhoods always bear the brunt of the costs? Should civil engineers leave the discussions to the politicians?

    ------------------------------
    Tsee Lee A.M.ASCE
    New York NY
    ------------------------------



  • 37.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 12-28-2021 11:53 AM

    This discussion has started with the distinction between the terms EQUITY and EQUALITY. However, I think it is also important to determine in which frame are given those. In this case, it is about DEI or Diversity, Equity and Inclusion statements. My interest is about knowing the way these will be linked or related to other frames such as SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITY and CULTURE FOR PEACE, which are attributes that the State University of Queretaro (UAQ), Mexico is interested in taking in account in all our academic programs.

    The undergraduate CE program of the UAQ is applying for ABET certification for second time, a renewal, and this time we will have the presence of ASCE evaluators. I think it will be a magnificent opportunity in taking an insight of the way the professional field in USA addresses these issues.

    For several years I was an ACI member, and recently I became a member of ASCE in order to get a greater vision of all the CE fields.

    If there is a group working in these topics, I would be interested in having contact with them. Thanking in advance.



    ------------------------------
    Miguel Perez Lara Ph.D., Aff.M.ASCE
    Professor
    Universidad Autónoma De Querétaro, México
    Santiago De Queretaro
    ------------------------------



  • 38.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 01-03-2022 02:07 PM

    Many amazing and thoughtful discussions on this topic. I am tempted to add a little to it.

    • Looking back, industrialization efforts of science, engineering and technological services – saw the birth of ABET in USA in 1932 to establish a common standard for institutions providing the STEM education. The mandate of ABET in broad terms: the standards we set and the quality we guarantee . . . to build a better world – one that is safer, more efficient, more comfortable and more sustainable. One can imagine that nearly 100 years after the founding of ABET, things have changed – social situations and aspirations have gotten new meaning, etc. Therefore, as part of the dynamic society, ABET initiative is laudable (it is worthwhile to mention that same thinking and efforts are launched by different other institutions, e.g. the works associated with the National Academies initiatives) to address the emerging conditions. Well, better late than never. Note also that some institutions are promoting JEDI (Justice, Equity, Diversity and Inclusion).

    • Before moving further, I like to begin by quoting the definitions of Equality and Equity as outlined in the 2019 NAP publication 25389 on Education Equity. Equality: the idea that goods and services are distributed evenly (i.e., everyone gets the same amounts), irrespective of individual needs or assets; the "starting point" is irrelevant – including the endowments that an individual brings to a situation, both positive and negative. Inequality: situations in which goods and services are not distributed evenly. Equity: the idea that need replaces a mechanistic approach to equality (see Equality definition); that the distribution of certain goods and services is purposefully unequal so that the neediest of students may receive more of certain resources, often to compensate or make up for their different starting points. Inequity: situations in which differences in need are not adequately considered.

    • The definitions immediately indicate that the idea of Equity represents a better rational and pragmatic approach of looking at things for collective progress. But, how does one ensure a common standard for institutions (involving faculty, students and administrative support) standing on different footings? Some may have been left out for some unwise systems; others may suffer from resource-deficiency of some sort, etc. Therefore the necessity of establishing Equity (realizing that talent, intellect and accomplishments are nourished by opportunity) – is felt to be more comfortable and more sustainable. Thus Equity becomes synonymous with Inclusion.

    • Diversity or Multiplicity. Diversity comes into the idea of Equity and Inclusion – building upon the notion that a particular group, idea or system is (or has been) dominant for some reasons, at the cost of or in negligent of others. If that is the case, it violates the principle of symmetry – therefore not comfortable, sustainable and healthy. Although widely accepted, Diversity connotes divergence or widening of differences. I prefer the term Multiplicity instead – which embraces the idea of inclusiveness of components – converging to complement and build the unity. In other words: multiplicity unity; unity multiplicity.

    • As one examines the definitions, a key word comes into focus – that is how to assess the neediest to administer the idea of Equity. Obviously, collecting data of the candidate is the primary requirement. And there come the questions and concerns – of privacy, data security, abuse etc. Some aspects of these types of concerns are discussed in my article Artificial Intelligence – the Tool of No Limit.

    • It is also worthwhile to highlight that Equity principle has been in practice in Asian Nations for many years. For example, in India and Bangladesh special scholarships are provided to talented students belonging to some socially/ethnically underprivileged and underrepresented communities. In addition, quota in some job categories are earmarked and filled by members from such communities.

    -----

    Dilip

    Website

    ORCID ID

    Google Scholar



    ------------------------------
    Dr. Dilip Barua, Ph.D, P.Eng, M. ASCE
    Vancouver, BC, Canada
    ------------------------------



  • 39.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 05-27-2022 04:23 PM
    Good international perspective. It's easy to forget that the US college system, especially in the Ivy League, heavily favors the rich and well connected. It's not a meritocracy--without legacy and endowment enrollees, the poor would make up a much larger percentage in elite schools. The recent admissions scandal, in which many rich and famous parents were implicated, was just one illustration of how the system really works--and how beneficial getting into a prestigious school helps a student, however academically they perform.

    I went to such a school. I didn't appreciate it then, but I am still accruing benefits.

    ------------------------------
    Tsee Lee, A.M.ASCE
    General Services Administration
    New York, NY
    ------------------------------



  • 40.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 01-05-2022 11:14 AM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 01-05-2022 06:24 PM

    This discussion has demonstrated the benefits of this forum's thoughtful perspectives and robust dialogue. I hope we've all benefitted and learned from other perspectives and viewpoints and will continue to do so as this discussion continues.

    As a representative of the ASCE Collaborate Editorial Board, I wanted to provide a reminder of the role of moderation in the forum to foster constructive, respectful, and open dialogue.

    The forum is moderated by volunteer ASCE members based on the ASCE Collaborate Code of Conduct. Moderators are members of the profession and are your fellow engineers. They are not ASCE staff or administrators. Moderators aim to enforce the code with as little interjection into the discussion as possible while trying to maintain a professional, constructive, and welcoming environment. The Editorial Board strives to be impartial. Edits are suggested as a means of conveying your message to a wider audience of readers.

    We encourage you to play a role as a member of the profession in the forum to encourage constructive dialogue. Posts may be flagged by members to be reviewed by the Editorial Board by contacting myself or the community manager Tirza Austin at taustin@....

    Grievances need to be expressed directly to the member or staff as a matter of professional courtesy.  If a policy (be it ASCE/ABET, corporate, academic, etc.) is being challenged, a citation of the specific sticking point should be clear to the reader.

    As an Editorial Board, we encourage you to continue to share your perspectives in constructive conversation on this topic.

    Collaborate Editorial Board
    Chad Morrison
    Jameelah Ingram
    Mitchell Winkler

    ------------------------------
    Chad Morrison P.E., F.ASCE
    Professional Engineer
    Greenville RI
    ------------------------------



  • 41.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 01-12-2022 11:52 AM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 01-12-2022 11:51 AM

    From my perspective, the issue isn't in the concept of equity but rather in how it can be applied. 

    For example, we often see an excellent use of equity when it comes to the distribution of certain scholarships. There are a ton of scholarships for which there is an assessment of financial need; a kid from a low-income household that meets the other requirements will be eligible, but a student with a wealthy parent won't qualify even if she meets the other requirements. Equity takes into account the resources available to the student and does not offer assistance equally across the board. 
    (I will interject here that I think it is good that there are also scholarships available that take into account other factors without a financial need requirement. High achieving students should have scholarship opportunities even if they aren't ranked as high financial need. Having a wide variety of scholarship opportunities makes sense to me.)

    An example of poor use of equity in my opinion is in the waiving of minimum admission standards to college because of income level, race, gender, etc. It is a disservice to an under-prepared or under-qualified student to be set up for failure. Minimum standards for admission were put in place for a reason. If the standards are a poor measure of college preparedness, they need to be changed for everyone. In this case, equity meant "get them into university" when it should have taken place before then. While you could call college admission an opportunity, it is also an outcome of sorts. Maybe that earlier opportunity would be a college prep program, tutoring assistance for the pre-requisite courses or exams, etc. Realistically it should have started very early in the educational process, not at the end of senior year of high school. 

    Equity can be great when it means we work on getting students the opportunity to learn and grow unhindered by disparities that are outside of their control. We should strive to give students the tools they need to achieve their academic potential. Equity can be harmful when it means we theoretically give a student an equal opportunity by lowering the bar so they can get over it without the right skills. 

    To use accessibility as an example:
    It is great to put a wheelchair assist into a pool so that people that use wheelchairs can have access to use the pool for recreation and/or therapy. We wouldn't, though, expect someone in a wheel chair with physical limitations to jump from the top of an Olympic high dive board. If they have a goal of going off the high dive, that would require additional healing,  therapy, and training before they could wisely make that dive. 

    Let's not push people with broken legs off the high dive, but let's also not leave those in wheelchairs sitting outside the pool longing to swim.


    ------------------------------
    Heidi C. Wallace, P.E., M.ASCE
    Tulsa, OK
    ------------------------------



  • 42.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 01-12-2022 05:30 PM
    Well said, Heidi, thank you for differentiating a few ways that equity can be achieved and the respective benefits/harms of those approaches.

    ------------------------------
    Kathryn Little, EIT, A.M.ASCE (she/her)
    Water Resources Engineer
    ------------------------------



  • 43.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 06-06-2022 08:00 AM
    Great opinion Heidi.

    I fully respect it.

    ------------------------------
    Abdelazim M Negm Ph.D., G.E., M.ASCE
    Retired Professor
    Alexandria
    ------------------------------



  • 44.  RE: Equality and Equity in Engineering

    Posted 07-22-2022 01:48 PM
    Hi Mark, thanks for this post!

    "Equity involves trying to understand and give people what they need to enjoy full, healthy lives. Equality, in contrast, aims to ensure that everyone gets the same things in order to enjoy full, healthy lives. Like equity, equality aims to promote fairness and justice, but it can only work if everyone starts from the same place and needs the same things."

    • In order for our women engineers in academia to "enjoy full, healthy lives" and knowing "it can only work if everyone starts from the same place and needs the same things,"
    Q. Isn't it way overdue to take this NAS set of reports on the Sexual Harassment of Women, in academia, in Science, Engineering, and Medicine Schools both seriously and personally?

    Lets place this horrific situation out, into the light of day!

    Cheers,
    Bill

    ------------------------------
    William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
    Buffalo, N.Y.

    "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
    ------------------------------