Bill:
Thanks for asking and the way you did it -- why, when, and who benefits.
Stu
Stuart G. Walesh, Ph.D., P.E.
Consultant - Teacher - Author
Tel: 219-464-1704
Cell: 219-242-1704
Website: www.HelpingYouEngineerYourFuture.com
www.linkedin.com/in/stuwalesh
On 07/26/2022 12:09 PM William Hayden via ASCE Collaborate <
mail@...> wrote:
Dear Colleagues, Just for a moment, lets all take a giant step back, away from the posts above. Help answer the glaringly "Silent" reason(s) as...
Re: Unlicensed engineers working for licensure exemption organizations
| | | Dear Colleagues, Just for a moment, lets all take a giant step back, away from the posts above.
Help answer the glaringly "Silent" reason(s) as to:
Q. Why, when, and who benefits by having the license for being a P.E. an apparent "Nice to have" but not a "Have to have?"
Stay Healthy! Cheers, Bill
------------------------------ William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE Buffalo, N.Y.
"It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880 ------------------------------
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Original Message: Sent: 07-05-2022 01:18 PM | |
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Original Message:
Sent: 7/26/2022 11:48:00 AM
From: William Hayden
Subject: RE: Unlicensed engineers working for licensure exemption organizations
Dear Colleagues,
Just for a moment, lets all take a giant step back, away from the posts above.
Help answer the glaringly
"Silent" reason(s) as to:
Q. Why, when, and who benefits by having the license for being a P.E. an apparent
"Nice to have" but not a
"Have to have?"
Stay Healthy!
Cheers,
Bill
------------------------------
William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
Buffalo, N.Y.
"It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
------------------------------
Original Message:
Sent: 07-05-2022 01:18 PM
From: William Hayden
Subject: Unlicensed engineers working for licensure exemption organizations
Hi Mitch.
My understanding, and I am
"dated," is that due to the insurance coverage covering losses within the industries noted, financial satisfaction is provided to the stockholders of the various industries. One engineer remarked that one of the reasons the oil spill in the Gulf was not seen by management as needing prompt attention was their insurance policy had covered it, and then some.
Then there are the business strategies other industries have wherein fatalities are not relentlessly pursued after serious product failure.
That means that of every 100 claims filed, maybe only 3 to 10 will actually see it though over a long period of time,
But of course, I may be wrong.
Cheers,
Bill
p.s. BTW Mitch, I wonder what bearing the data you requested above might have on the pursuit of required licensure?
------------------------------
William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
Buffalo, N.Y.
"It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
Original Message:
Sent: 07-05-2022 12:28 PM
From: Mitchell Winkler
Subject: Unlicensed engineers working for licensure exemption organizations
it would be interesting to see what the data has to say across the spectrum of above mentioned industries including injuries, fatalities, loss of capital, and disruption to operations / use.
------------------------------
Mitch Winkler P.E., M.ASCE
Houston, TX
Original Message:
Sent: 07-05-2022 08:34 AM
From: Stuart Walesh
Subject: Unlicensed engineers working for licensure exemption organizations
Perry:I appreciate your comment with the underlying public safety concern.
My principal public-safety concern lies with the other engineering disciplines who tend to work in licensure-exempt situations.
A state-by-state scan of all of the licensure-exemption laws reveals, depending on the particular licensing jurisdictions, that they collectively exempt from licensing laws engineers employed by industries, manufacturers, mining and petroleum companies, public utilities, railroads, telecommunication companies, government units (federal, state, county, and local levels), and the armed forces.
Stated differently, this means that most states do not require that competent, ethical, and accountable licensed engineers be in responsible charge of designing airplanes, autonomous and driven motor vehicles, amusement park and carnival rides, natural gas distribution systems, oil pipelines, electric power networks, railroads, wind farms, and chemical, construction, and manufacturing processes.
Given the bottom-line first culture that can thrive within organizations where licensure-exemptions apply, this situation looks like disasters waiting to happen.
------------------------------
Stu Walesh PhD, PE
Consultant - Teacher - Author
219-242-1704
www.HelpingYouEngineerYourFuture.com
Original Message:
Sent: 07-02-2022 08:25 AM
From: Perry Cole
Subject: Unlicensed engineers working for licensure exemption organizations
I feel that all Civil Engineers, and their sub-disciplines like Structural and Geotechnical, should pursue Professional status. Those individuals involved in the engineering and design of life safety projects (roads, bridges, buildings, dams, water treatment, sanitary sewage treatment, locks, powerplants, stadiums, Emergency response facilities, schools, hospitals, etcetera) should be required to prove a minimum level of competency. That would be by becoming a Professional Engineer (Civil), Structural Engineer, Geotechnical Engineer, ...
------------------------------
Perry Cole P.E., S.E., F.ASCE
Redmond WA
Original Message:
Sent: 12-09-2019 09:40 AM
From: Stuart Walesh
Subject: Unlicensed engineers working for licensure exemption organizations
My research into the history of U.S. engineering led me to the realization that less than half of civil engineering graduates are PEs. I hope to start a sharing of views and experiences about working as an unlicensed civil engineer in a licensure exemption organization.
Full disclosure: I do not believe that all engineering graduates, regardless of their highest degree, should be licensed. Engineers, CEs and others, who chose to forego licensure can fulfill many other varied and useful roles, such as:
- Perform mostly technical work indefinitely under the supervision of licensed engineers
- Teach primarily engineering science courses in contrast with engineering design and practice offerings
- Conduct research and development within or outside of academia
- Market engineering services or engineered products
- Start an engineering business that produces a product not subject to current laws or rules requiring engineering licensure
- Start a non-engineering business utilizing science, analysis, and design knowledge and skills acquired during undergraduate engineering studies
- Move on to medicine, law, or some other professional program outside of engineering, after earning a baccalaureate degree in engineering
The preceding options aside, many unlicensed engineers, including unlicensed civil engineers, work for industries, manufacturers, utilities, government entities, and other organizations operating under state and territory licensure exemption laws. I recently developed a deeper and broader view of how personally debilitating, for engineers, and seriously damaging, for society, engineering licensure exemption cultures can be. Notice that I said "can."
More specifically, up to 80 percent of the U.S. engineering community is practicing in situations where, very often, engineering ethics codes don't apply or are weakly administered and too many engineering decisions are made by "management" whose primary focus is the bottom line. Those engineers frequently work in environments where engineering is performed without the guidance of a competent and accountable licensed engineers whose paramount responsibility is public protection. In my view, this falls embarrassingly and frighteningly short of where engineering should be, given its potential for positive and negative impacts on the public. That is not how a profession functions.
If you have foregone licensure and worked for a licensure exemption business, please consider sharing your positive and/or negative experiences. I am also interested in knowing when and why you choose the non-licensure option.
Thank you.
------------------------------
Stu Walesh PhD, PE
Consultant - Teacher - Author
219-242-1704
www.HelpingYouEngineerYourFuture.com------------------------------