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  • 1.  Unlimited Vacation Time

    Posted 04-08-2019 11:49 PM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 04-08-2019 11:48 PM
    In a discussion about work benefits with non-civil engineers, the concept of unlimited vacation time came up. So, I did a little research. A growing number of companies that employ engineers are offering this benefit, for some examples see a list of some of these firms HERE. I found a blog specifically for AEC companies discussing if your firm should have an unlimited vacation policy HERE. It was also interesting to read this article about a hospital in Canada that successfully implemented this policy for some employees.

    What do you think about this benefit? Do you know of any companies in civil engineering offering such a benefit (I don't)? If not, do you think this benefit will eventually become more mainstream? 

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    Stephanie Slocum P.E.
    Founder
    Engineers Rising LLC
    www.engineersrising.com
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  • 2.  RE: Unlimited Vacation Time

    Posted 04-09-2019 10:55 AM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 04-11-2019 10:05 PM
    In my Civil/ Structural Engineering work, we have project deadlines that are carved in stone. Not only do we have to fit our limited vacation time accordingly, but some people chose to work while being sick in order to keep construction going; they had to be pressured to go home on sick leave!

    BTW, in the largest project I worked on, the penalty for exceeding the deadline of final design was $100,000.00 per day. And for the over all construction, $300,000.00 penalty per day. Now, try fitting unlimited vacation on that schedule!

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    Neil Kazen, M.Eng., M.Sc., P.Eng.
    FASCE, FCPCI, FEC,
    Retired Structural Engineering Manager, Transportation Division, SNC-Lavalin
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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  • 3.  RE: Unlimited Vacation Time

    Posted 04-11-2019 09:58 PM
      |   view attached

    When I first saw the title of this topic, I thought of George Orwell's (1903 – 1950) Utopia. But it is real – hope it is. Thank you, Stephanie for sharing something refreshing. I guess things are experimental at this stage, but the companies must have reasons to initiate such a management technique.

    Unlimited vacation time – seems like a retirement to me – one may soon feel bored of what might have been enjoyable time after hard work. It is common knowledge now that vacation and leisure are integral parts of work – because they let one to re-energize, thus improving his or her productivity and quality.   

    All new things create uproar in the beginning – like when the first slavery abolition act in the Western world was passed in British parliament in 1833. British aristocrats and elites were furious – how the bloody fool commonest of the commons could pass such a law?  In a few years time though – they came down to earth, saying that it was the reasonable thing to do.

    But Neil Kazen's points are real – though penalty seems too harsh! Perhaps it is reasonable to say that things depend on client-contractor-consultant relationships. And things get delayed for many genuine reasons (scope change, Natural disaster, unforeseen technicalities, etc). Keeping the noose tight is a prevailing management technique however – but it has elements of lack of trust.

    The post World War II saw the rapid rise of Japan in economic and technological prowess. There were quite some interests in the western world to know the Japanese society, their work ethics and management techniques – and researches were initiated in some US universities. I have included a Table of management/ethics comparison from a book authored by WJ Keegan (Multinational Marketing Management, Prentice-Hall 1980). Have a look to understand different perspectives.

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    Dr. Dilip Barua, Ph.D, P.Eng, M. ASCE
    Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Website: https://widecanvas.weebly.com
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  • 4.  RE: Unlimited Vacation Time

    Posted 04-11-2019 11:12 PM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 04-11-2019 11:12 PM
    The penalty for delay was for a good reason: to avoid delay of a major transit project of a major city with millions of people waiting for it.

    Such delays in major infrastructure projects are happening almost everywhere in the world; turning the public cynical and angry.

    Projects such as a whole subway system for a major city, are subject to the involvement of many parties, three levels of government, and multitudes of concerned citizen groups with their diverse opinions and activism; all under the extreme scrutiny of the media.

    So, engineers working on such projects are under extreme pressure to do a perfect job on time and on budget. It's not about mistrust but about accountability in the highest.

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    Neil Kazen, M.Eng., M.Sc., P.Eng.
    FASCE, FCPCI, FEC,
    Retired Structural Engineering Manager, Transportation Division, SNC-Lavalin
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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  • 5.  RE: Unlimited Vacation Time

    Posted 04-12-2019 10:53 AM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 04-12-2019 10:53 AM
    I think that the items Neil states can be budgeted for.  I know that when I worked on similar project's mandatory overtime to 60 hours was recommended.  How about we split the the job into two 40 hour pieces?  Almost the same cost, and 20 hours extra work hours in the week.  Those same projects had the biggest burnout rate.  Generally after big deadlines the whole team except the managers took 3-6 weeks of vacation.  A lot of the design team looked for a new job during that 6 weeks.

    There is a happy medium.  Give your employees all the time off they need for personal reasons, and give them 3-4 weeks of vacation in chunks of more than 3 days.  Most employees will not take advantage of the time off because they know that they have a great thing.  They will work efficiently while working.  Those that do take advantage of the system, probably are not performing well anyway, and may need to leave the fold to a more restrictive system.

    I am trying the second system.  Employees that are paid based on a 135 hours work month, and allowed to work and bill up to 160 in a month before I have to pay overtime.  They can work those 135 hours on any days that they want in chunks of 4-8 hour days.  They are expected to keep to budget, and I get much fewer surprises with respect to overtime.  They do what they need to with the rest of the work days that they are not working.  I get a lot fewer requests for time for the kids recitals, time for doctors appointments, or times for family emergencies.  I do get a few work weeks right before tight deadlines with 7 days of billable time, but not many.   As the owner/manager, I need to be flexible, and have many 9 pm coordination meetings (at my employee's request) to facilitate their unusual work schedules.

    I am still small, and have daily interaction with all my employees.  I think that this system is scalable, but time will tell.

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    Dwayne Culp, Ph.D., Ph.D.,M.ASCE
    Culp Engineering, LLC
    Rosenberg TX
    (713)898-1977
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  • 6.  RE: Unlimited Vacation Time

    Posted 04-12-2019 11:46 AM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 04-12-2019 11:45 AM
    Dwayne,

    Work hours and vacation time in such mega projects are similar to what you described: 35 to 40 hours per week, with certain degree of flexibility and only occasional and limited overtime. And 3-6 weeks vacation, with proper planning. That is essential to maintain high quality outcome; avoiding burnout and its costly mistakes. However, it is all planned well into rigorous plan to meet project completion target.

    The "penalty" I was referring to, was about avoiding delay in project completion; that was required in light of previous transit project delays and cost overruns. The last subway extension in Toronto, the largest in 40 years, was delayed by more than two years and with huge cost overruns that made bad news, with multiple parties pointing fingers at each other. There are even worse delays and cost overruns in another transit project, that I know of, oversees.

    So, the currently largest project under construction in Canada, has avoided such problems, and is on schedule, mainly because it is a P3 (Design, Build, and Maintain) by one consortium. And with the motivation of avoiding heavy penalties for delays.

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    Neil Kazen, M.Eng., M.Sc., P.Eng.
    FASCE, FCPCI, FEC,
    Retired Structural Engineering Manager, Transportation Division, SNC-Lavalin
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Unlimited Vacation Time

    Posted 04-16-2019 03:06 PM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 04-16-2019 03:06 PM

    <g class="gr_ gr_38 gr-alert gr_gramm gr_inline_cards gr_run_anim Punctuation only-ins replaceWithoutSep" id="38" data-gr-id="38">Thanks</g> everyone for your comments so far. I found @Spiltek Steven's links very interesting, particularly the following two conclusions:

    1. That the policy won't work unless management is very open about expectations. 
    2. Higher performers are more likely to benefit as they take the most days off.

    Management that is open about expectations is extremely desirable (at least from an employee perspective), but in my experience often hard to come by. High performers are also extremely valuable, and ideally all the engineers you work with would be mid to high performers anyway. I've never worked anywhere that could afford to keep (either in financial costs or morale) low-performing engineers.

    When I first posted this thread, I was operating under the assumption that most engineers – at least many of the ones I've worked with – truly enjoy what they do, take pride in their own work & their ability to get things done, and generally would not try to take advantage of the system. Clearly, some companies with engineers - like GE – have been able to make this work. If people were taking advantage, I imagine they would have stopped the policy. Yes, it's a different type of company as compared to a consulting firm, but I do think we need to consider the benefits in other engineering industries if we want to encourage the best and brightest of the next generation to consider civil engineering as a career. 

    For project deadlines, the challenges I've found specific to vacation (unlimited or otherwise) have not been the deadlines that have been set in stone from the beginning. It's when you schedule/<g class="gr_ gr_4999 gr-alert gr_gramm gr_inline_cards gr_run_anim Grammar multiReplace" id="4999" data-gr-id="4999">approve</g> a longer vacation a year in advance based on known deadlines, and then the client (usually a private one – architects are notorious for this) changes the deadline. Or, someone leaves who was working on a project, and it's reassigned to you. Poor project management in general often seems to be culprit here, not vacation time. Unforeseen circumstances do exist, but I think most can be planned and budgeted for as @Dwayne Culp indicates.

    ​​​​​

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    Stephanie Slocum P.E.
    Founder
    Engineers Rising LLC
    www.engineersrising.com
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  • 8.  RE: Unlimited Vacation Time

    Posted 04-12-2019 11:12 AM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 04-12-2019 11:12 AM
    I do not have direct experience, but heard about a study recently with mixed results from unlimited vacation time.  The study found that employees with unlimited vacation typically take less time off than under a traditional scheme.  Most employees don't feel comfortable taking longer, aspirational vacations, even if it is allowed by policy.  The article below discusses that study and concludes that the policy won't work unless management is very open about expectations.  Interestingly, the article also notes that when implemented effectively, higher performers are more likely to benefit as they take the most days off.

    How to Implement an Effective Unlimited Vacation Policy
    Namely remove preview
    How to Implement an Effective Unlimited Vacation Policy
    While unlimited PTO comes with both pros and cons for employers and employees, there is a strategic way to maximize the benefits of an unlimited vacation policy for everyone. Follow these best practices to successfully implement a mutually beneficial PTO policy.
    View this on Namely >

    On a related note, I heard an interesting interview with Tom Chappell (founder of Tom's of Maine) - the company allows employees to charge 5% of their time toward volunteering in the community.  Essentially an extra 12 days per year.  In the interview he said that it was a win/win, boosting productivity and morale. People were more energized when they had the time to do something meaningful to them.  Sounds like a great idea to me.


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    Steven Splitek, P.E., PMP, ENV SP
    Denver, CO
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  • 9.  RE: Unlimited Vacation Time

    Posted 04-13-2019 06:58 PM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 04-13-2019 06:57 PM
    Not enough vacation days for full time employees at most companies is a pet peeve of mine. Two weeks per year seems especially inhumane. 

    It's difficult to wrap my head around an unlimited paid vacation from an employer's prospective. However, some companies do offer unpaid vacation or vacation buy-back options, where you have flexibility of taking up to a month of unpaid vacation (you might even pay a little back in pro-rated benefits), provided there is no urgent work at the time. It did not seem particularly popular with other co-workers, but I loved this idea, because it gave an employee the power to buy free time without loosing benefits. 

    Unfortunately, in my experience, this was an option on paper only.  When I actually requested some extra unpaid vacation time at the end of my first year, I was asked to write an explanation letter as to what special circumstances call for the extra vacation, rather than to explain whether the project schedule allowed me to take one. It was very clear from the tone of the form that we were not expected to actually routinely use the benefit.

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    Natalya Sokolovskaya P.E.,M.ASCE
    Wynnewood PA
    (323)382-6176
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  • 10.  RE: Unlimited Vacation Time

    Posted 04-14-2019 02:55 PM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 04-14-2019 02:54 PM
    Natalya, 

    If the project schedule allowed taking an unpaid vacation, then the employer should welcome it as it helps reduce their costs.
    Their hindering it is strange!

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    Neil Kazen, M.Eng., M.Sc., P.Eng.
    FASCE, FCPCI, FEC,
    Retired Structural Engineering Manager, Transportation Division, SNC-Lavalin
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    ------------------------------