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  • 1.  Civil Engineers & Climate Change

    Posted 11-13-2019 06:22 PM
      |   view attached
    ​Please offer your comments and responses to the attached article from the ASCE Wisconsin Section November 2019 newsletter on the engineer and climate change.

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    Gregory Schroeder P.E., M.ASCE
    Senior Engineer
    Lake Geneva WI
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    Attachment(s)



  • 2.  RE: Civil Engineers & Climate Change

    Posted 11-14-2019 11:14 AM
    Greg,

    Very thoughtful discussion and on point.  We engineers in Wisconsin are relatively lucky because the challenges we face pale in comparison to our fellow citizens and engineers in coastal and areas of more extreme environments.  As you say, one of the key issues we face is convincing portions of the populace that these challenges are real and need to be addressed - I am confident that most civil engineers have come to the conclusion (as I have) that there are real threats to the performance of our infrastructure and in that way threats to our quality of life.  We can see the evidence and be discussion leaders.

    One other important issue for us as a profession is that we can no longer look to the past and reasonably assume that the future will be more or less the same.  This will put an onus on us to consider whether our projects will perform differently in the later years of their design life than they do when they are constructed, and if so to consider appropriate adaptations.  This is definitely true for my area of water resources, but I think that changing hydrology and climate will affect many other engineering disciplines as seasonal temperature and drainage patterns are very likely to shift over time.

    We are definitely going to have to play catch up to incorporate needed changes into our planning and design processes, but if the best day to start was yesterday, the second best day is today.

    Michael Schwar, PE D.WRE

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    Michael Schwar P.E., D.WRE, M.ASCE
    East Troy WI
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  • 3.  RE: Civil Engineers & Climate Change

    Posted 11-15-2019 12:20 PM

    I agree with Greg and Michael, and add the following perspective. From my relatively humble experiences and education, since we are not able to distinguish one contributing factor to climate change from another with strong enough confidence, then the issues raised by Greg and Michael and likely others to come will remain until we all take action together. There are at least 6 contributing forcings toward climate change. Implicit in these are the ASCE-wide relevant infrastructure concerns. The contributing forcings can surely be scrubbed, debated and so on, but presented for start of the discussion…

    The general forcings that contribute to climate change include:

    1. Natural (e.g., sun getting hotter)
    2. Population Dynamics (Greg's psychology of denial and politics of inaction notwithstanding and on point)
    3. Land Cover/ Land Use changes (Although partially driven by socio-economics and population dynamics, e.g., increased population globally and a growing number of cities. Cities are tied to concept of heat islands which are known to affect climate. Hence, for example they lead to warming, but mainly because the latent and sensible heat fluxes of the non-city landscape are different than those of the city landscape. It also leads to more socio-economic impacts and changes in record weather recordings; increased damage to our infrastructure from Hurricanes, etcetera. Michael's comments on hydrology notwithstanding, and on point).
    4. Anthropogenic pollution effects (direct mainly, and some indirect not already counted)
    5. Historical data records
    6. Our very limited understanding of the quantified role each atmospheric constituent plays in weather. The details of this go to far into the weeds for this part of the discussion. Suffice it to say, that such at least relates to the improved estimates of radiative transfer within the earth-atmosphere on small ecosystem/rural villages to global scales.

    Climate is the average of weather in space and time at least. If the average is based on rounded off data or 'guestimated' information, the error interval surrounding our measure of climate is going to be large, whereas using well calibrated, representative data and verified information reduces that error interval. The latter requires quantifying all contributing disciplines and their interactions, which also requires improving the infrastructure. The contributing disciplines (to climate change) intersect those of the ASCE, and possibly some interfacial disciplines, if any. I also agree that "… we as individuals should be leaders in engineering our world and making it a better place to live ….".

    Currently the infrastructure is not at the level needed to enable us, nor most of our colleagues, to quantitatively distinguish which contributing factor to climate change and its impact is dominant over another. Sure, some disciplines might be closer than others in said regard, or believe they are.

    Until the infrastructure is at the level needed, the uncertainty and the issues brought forth by Greg, Michael and others to come will prevail. Hence, assessing changes in Climate and their impacts will remain prone to misinterpretation, poor policy decisions and more. 

    I agree with Greg's statement, "… Changing behaviors will impact the economic prosperity of countries, states, regions, and individuals. ..", but in my view it underscores the rationale behind the opportunity to improve the infrastructure across ASCE and by reaching out within and beyond ASCE to do our part in overcoming or minimizing the impacts from climate change.

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    Thomas DeFelice Ph.D., M.ASCE

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  • 4.  RE: Civil Engineers & Climate Change

    Posted 11-15-2019 04:37 PM
    Edited by Sarah Pasquesi 11-15-2019 07:00 PM
    Hi, Gregory

    I was extremely excited and impressed to see your article in the Wisconsin Section Newsletter this afternoon.  I think that Dr. DeFelice's comment is the perfect example of why this space in the newsletter is extremely important.  Instead of excusing our "humble experiences and education" before going on to spread misinformation on climate science, we should be doing our best to understand the exhaustive climate research that has been laid out by NASA as well as others (https://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus/).  Of course, it's in the Civil Engineer's best interest to plan for the future, but beyond engineering, it is in every person's best interest to take action today to significantly reduce any human impacts that have the potential to contribute to a changing climate.


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    Sarah Pasquesi P.E., M.ASCE
    Milwaukee WI
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  • 5.  RE: Civil Engineers & Climate Change

    Posted 11-16-2019 07:22 AM
    Yes Sarah, Climate change science and impacts are more than just about changes in greenhouse gases and the effects from such changes. Here are a few more links to help us understand its breadth;
    https://www.giss.nasa.gov/projects/impacts/
    https://www.noaa.gov/climate
    https://www.epa.gov/climate-indicators

    One could also search 'Inadvertent Weather Modification' a term used extensively by Dr. S Changnon of Univ of Illinois. It encompasses the unintentional effects on weather caused by human activities conducted for purposes other than changing the weather and even climate.

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    Thomas DeFelice Ph.D., M.ASCE


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  • 6.  RE: Civil Engineers & Climate Change

    Posted 11-20-2019 11:04 AM

    I am glad to see an opinion piece published in the ASCE WI Section newsletter.  When I was involved in the Section leadership and newsletter, I enjoyed writing opinion pieces and I encourage others to write them as well.

    This is certainly a worthwhile topic to discuss, and I was encouraged by much of the article.  He accurately identifies many of the roadblocks to implementing major change on a global level, and identifies many past and ongoing blunders relative to human impacts on portions of the earth.  Too much of what we do, as individuals and as societies, is short-sighted and focused on personal benefit without adequate consideration of wider impacts. However, I believe that the article falls short in: 1) its presumption of significant anthropocentric contributions to past changes in climate, 2) its reference to recent weather events as demonstration of long-term changes in climate, and 3) its condescending dismissal of those who are unconvinced of an existential threat posed by a changing climate.

    1)      Dr. DeFelice addresses this aspect in his thoughtful response in this ASCE Collaborate thread.  There is little doubt that the earth has experienced significant changes in climate during the span of its existence, and it is highly likely that such changes are ongoing now. This entire topic needs a lot more research and depth of understanding before ASCE and civil engineers, as rational leaders, jump on a bandwagon driven largely by a team of political horses. ASCE's vision statements indicate a desire to be managers of risk – this requires a more balanced approach to a highly impactful issue than is proposed by Mr. Gregory's article. The data are insufficient and the models are poorly calibrated.  If we are going to be leaders, we should be voices of caution in this regard, encouraging a thorough evaluation of all information, including information that does not fit a foregone conclusion.

    2)      Many of the recent extreme weather events get close to breaking records that were set back in the 1930s, before major greenhouse-gas-producing industrialization reached a global scale.  The increase in reporting of extreme events does not prove there are more events – it can reflect the improved ability to disseminate information.  It can also reflect confirmation bias and the tendency to publish information that fits the worldview of the publishers.  Again, if ASCE is going to be a leader, we need to step back from ourselves and our own interests (and our political leanings) and be the rational gatherers and evaluators of information that we claim to be.

    3)      The condescending reference to those who disagree with much of the "climate change" rhetoric as "deniers of unwelcome facts" was most disappointing to read.  Yes, it is a quirk of human psychology that many of us want to deny the existence of bad news.  That could equally explain why many climate change advocates refuse to acknowledge the data that is contrary to their theory.  There are other psychological quirks and logical fallacies that could also come into play to lead us astray here.  One I mentioned above – confirmation bias, the tendency to see things that support our position and overlook things that don't.  Another quirk is that we tend to support the side of an argument that is in our interests, whether financial or professional prestige.  For example: if there are going to be more extreme meteorological events or rises in ocean level, then there is going to be some great business generated for civil engineers; if these events are going to happen, we can all make a lot of money and gain prestige by being at the forefront of developing protective measures.  So it is in our apparent interests to do all we can to convince everyone that the "if" is true and there is a need to pour vast resources into addressing those needs.  If the need is real, we would just happen to be among those whose skill sets would help alleviate the problems. That is all good.  But it does create a potential conflict of interests for us, meaning we must be doubly vigilant.  Yet another fallacy that we risk is one that leads us to support all arguments and proposals made by those who support the same narrative but for different reasons – the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" type of fallacy.  I'm sure there's a more scientific name for it. And many of those pushing the climate change narrative are not doing so for reasons of developing infrastructure to mitigate its impacts.  They are using it as a basis for controlling the economy, redistributing wealth, and gaining votes potentially at a high cost to the public health and welfare.  We need to be careful and keep in mind all of our code of ethics.

    The cost to the public, whose health and welfare we are charged with protecting, of wrong decisions in this matter are potentially very high.  If we err in either direction on this issue, there could be severe health and economic consequences.   Because of this, I believe that the approach we should be taking to this issue, as ASCE, is:

    ·         To evaluate all available information, including that which runs contrary to the current political winds and to our own personal interests and leanings.

    ·         To not dismiss, exclude, or condescend to those who do not agree with us on this.

    ·         To evaluate the consequences of proposed courses of action or inaction.

    ·         To not advocate for a solution until the problem is well understood.

    ·         To advocate for continued collection and analysis of objective data, and the development of better and more accurate predictive models, calibrated to measurable and verifiable occurrences.

    ·         Examine of proposed technological or political solution to these problems for their potential to create yet other problems.

    ·         To not use the severe consequences of highly unlikely predictions as a basis for recommending action but instead, rationally and clearly present a spectrum of potential outcomes along with their associated likelihoods of occurring and the costs of mitigating (and not mitigating) those risks.

    ·         To keep our focus on engineering solutions and not endorse or support political solutions.

    ·         Be open in our acknowledgement of the potential gains for the civil engineering profession as a result of implementing certain solutions.



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    William Meyer P.E., M.ASCE
    Senior Project Manager
    Hanson Professional Services, Inc.
    (The above is my opinion and does not reflect that of Hanson Professional Services Inc.)
    Brokaw WI
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  • 7.  RE: Civil Engineers & Climate Change

    Posted 11-22-2019 08:22 AM
    There was an excellent keynote presentation in October's Annual Wisconsin Section Meeting that discussed climate change. I wish that everyone could have been there to hear it because it presented lots of valid information that all members of ASCE in Wisconsin should know about. The presentation was "The Effects of Extreme Storm Events on Future Engineering Design" by Daniel Wright, PhD, UW-Madison Assistant Professor and "Solving The Climate Challenge" by Bob Lindmeier, Chief Meteorologist at WKOW 27 ABC. Getting facts from people who study the climate is the first step in getting accurate information instead of basing one's opinion on others opinions.

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    Yance Marti P.E., M.ASCE
    Civil Engineer IV
    City of Milwaukee
    Milwaukee WI
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