Professional and Career Topics

I recently finished reading Down with the System, written by Serj Tankian, lead vocalist of System of a Down.

This might seem like an odd place to draw inspiration for a discussion on engineering, but in Chapter 13 Tankian recounts the major struggles faced by Armenia during the devastation caused by the 1988 Spitak earthquake. This disaster revealed deep-rooted flaws in the country's infrastructure. 

Much of the failure in infrastructure was attributed to corruption and negligence in both construction and design. Tankian explains how some technical professionals, including engineers, had paid bribes to receive their certifications, which in turn contributed to substandard construction practices.

This brings me to the question: What can we do to continue to incentivize the industry to behave ethically? Alternately, are there existing practices that you believe effectively facilitate this?  

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Christopher Seigel P.E., M.ASCE
Civil Engineer
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We need a lot less Toxicity in our cities.  

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Benjamin Ross P.E., M.ASCE
Vice President
Engineering Surveys & Services
Columbia MO
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This is my new favorite reply on the forums. Thank you.

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Christopher Seigel P.E., M.ASCE
Civil Engineer
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Original Message:
Sent: 10-14-2024 08:53 AM
From: Benjamin Ross
Subject: System of a Downfall: The Role of Ethics in Engineering

We need a lot less Toxicity in our cities.  

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Benjamin Ross P.E., M.ASCE
Vice President
Engineering Surveys & Services
Columbia MO
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May be we first need to define what ethics means.  Do we consider business ethics different that personal ethics, which are different than engineering ethics.  I have come across this splitting what ethics is.  I happen to believe there is only one type of ethics.  My major regret is that a lot of the engineering community does not share that same point of view.  How many times have you heard that an engineering firm are really sharp businesspeople and to be careful.  or it your duty to protect a client because your client perceived as the public against a mean contractor.  It doesn't mater that your client violated the contract with the contractor and is in the wrong.

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David Thompson P.E., M.ASCE
Principal
KTA Structural Engineers Ltd.
Calgary AB
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I don't have an answer for you, but I've been reading the Grenfell Tower Inquiry and RAAC reports coming out of the UK and it seems like these sorts of issues continue to crop up in the current day as well. I'll be very interested to see how the engineering community there responds to the information that has come out about the alleged negligence and corruption that contributed to the severity of these issues.

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Renn Henry, PE
Staff Engineer
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Given that Ethics is a branch of philosophy it is nearly impossible to force people to behave "ethically." Laws are a good deterrent for some people, but others maybe not. That brings us to the two type of motivation, punishment and reward. What type of rewards can we possibly provide that can outweigh financial gain? How can we further exercise punishment?

I believe the FBPE Disciplinary Actions Filings are effective deterrents to unethical behavior, publishing and distributing more of those rather than award winning projects could incentivize the industry to behave ethically.

As far as rewards go, I'm not sure... Money makes the world go round. 

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Donovan Morrell A.M.ASCE
Daytona Beach FL
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Thanks for your thoughts. I can appreciate the way you are thinking about this in terms of either punishment and reward. 

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Christopher Seigel P.E., M.ASCE
Civil Engineer
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Original Message:
Sent: 10-17-2024 08:59 AM
From: Donovan Morrell
Subject: System of a Downfall: The Role of Ethics in Engineering

Given that Ethics is a branch of philosophy it is nearly impossible to force people to behave "ethically." Laws are a good deterrent for some people, but others maybe not. That brings us to the two type of motivation, punishment and reward. What type of rewards can we possibly provide that can outweigh financial gain? How can we further exercise punishment?

I believe the FBPE Disciplinary Actions Filings are effective deterrents to unethical behavior, publishing and distributing more of those rather than award winning projects could incentivize the industry to behave ethically.

As far as rewards go, I'm not sure... Money makes the world go round. 

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Donovan Morrell A.M.ASCE
Daytona Beach FL
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Thanks Chris for this reminder from the past.

Take the ethics provisions related to "Pay to play."

If you search for those engineers who came forward, identifying

public and private entities in the eventual lawsuit, we learn two things:

1. The public entity and private firm rep get little to no consequences, and,
2. The individual who identified the ethical breach was never again hired.

As one engineer/owner years ago stated, "What's the big deal? All the big firms do it!"

Perhaps the lessons herein amount to manage, lead, and control what you have

accountability for.

Cheers,

Bill

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William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
Buffalo, N.Y.

"It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
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Original Message:
Sent: 10-18-2024 10:03 AM
From: Christopher Seigel
Subject: System of a Downfall: The Role of Ethics in Engineering

Thanks for your thoughts. I can appreciate the way you are thinking about this in terms of either punishment and reward. 

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Christopher Seigel P.E., M.ASCE
Civil Engineer
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Original Message:
Sent: 10-17-2024 08:59 AM
From: Donovan Morrell
Subject: System of a Downfall: The Role of Ethics in Engineering

Given that Ethics is a branch of philosophy it is nearly impossible to force people to behave "ethically." Laws are a good deterrent for some people, but others maybe not. That brings us to the two type of motivation, punishment and reward. What type of rewards can we possibly provide that can outweigh financial gain? How can we further exercise punishment?

I believe the FBPE Disciplinary Actions Filings are effective deterrents to unethical behavior, publishing and distributing more of those rather than award winning projects could incentivize the industry to behave ethically.

As far as rewards go, I'm not sure... Money makes the world go round. 

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Donovan Morrell A.M.ASCE
Daytona Beach FL

Why do you think punishment should be emphasized over rewards? I personally believe it should be the opposite, but I'm curious as to why you believe so. I think tax cuts for companies judged "ethical" could be effective or a financial award for passing an audit could be as well. It's like the old saying goes, you catch more flies with honey than with salt.

I do not mean to belittle your idea, but I think rewards should be emphasized more than punishment even in tandem. What are your thoughts as a recent graduate and professional in the industry of about 3 years? I believe strongly in this, but I am also a student who is still earning his associates, and would greatly appreciate your feedback.

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Haydn Chambers S.M.ASCE
Salt Lake City UT
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Original Message:
Sent: 10-17-2024 08:59 AM
From: Donovan Morrell
Subject: System of a Downfall: The Role of Ethics in Engineering

Given that Ethics is a branch of philosophy it is nearly impossible to force people to behave "ethically." Laws are a good deterrent for some people, but others maybe not. That brings us to the two type of motivation, punishment and reward. What type of rewards can we possibly provide that can outweigh financial gain? How can we further exercise punishment?

I believe the FBPE Disciplinary Actions Filings are effective deterrents to unethical behavior, publishing and distributing more of those rather than award winning projects could incentivize the industry to behave ethically.

As far as rewards go, I'm not sure... Money makes the world go round. 

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Donovan Morrell A.M.ASCE
Daytona Beach FL
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Great proposal, Christopher. I guess I'm curious on what truly unethical practices this group of engineers have seen in their career. Hard to respond to your question, hot incentivize ethical behavior, without knowing what unethical behavior is being addressed.

Here are my thoughts on that....the most proliferated problem I see is my fellow engineers making technical decisions and directions based on following a contract or governmental procedures, not based on what's best for the project. That is, they are driven by fear of litigation or bucking a broken governmental system. Once that fear consumes the engineer so much that they operate serving those fears to any regular degree, they have crossed over to an unethical behavior pattern. We are engineers--not slaves to governmental regulations or risk avoidance. The incentive to fight against that type of unethical and weak behavior is to point it out at every opportunity and refuse to accept non-answers like "we're doing that because that's what the contract says to do." We will make the industry stronger.

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John Dudlicek P.E., M.ASCE
Vice President
Highland IN
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This is a great thread! I just want to chime in on the ethics definition and say that what I think we really need as engineers is to understand empathy with our clients and how to incorporate that into our work. That's why I started the consulting firm I started! And it's also why I shifted away from traditional consulting firms. 

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Lia Clark A.M.ASCE
Manager
Austin TX
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The attached, dated paper addressed this topic some time ago.

Cheers,

Bill

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William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
Buffalo, N.Y.

"It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
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Original Message:
Sent: 11-01-2024 05:23 PM
From: Lia Clark
Subject: System of a Downfall: The Role of Ethics in Engineering

This is a great thread! I just want to chime in on the ethics definition and say that what I think we really need as engineers is to understand empathy with our clients and how to incorporate that into our work. That's why I started the consulting firm I started! And it's also why I shifted away from traditional consulting firms. 

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Lia Clark A.M.ASCE
Manager
Austin TX
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