Professional and Career Topics

Once again, I found myself surprised by an interview question on my expected salary.  Previously, for Job # 1 and Job # 2, I just obstinately refused to answer, letting the potential employers give their offers first. I've had reasons, because Job # 1 was my first job and I had no idea, and for job # 2, I've moved  to Pennsylvania, where everyone greeted me with "of course you won't get the same salary here, as you had in California…" This time I've asked to let me think it over and get back by the end of the day, which I did, after some research using the ASCE salary calculator.

How do you see this question? Do you feel put on the spot when a potential employer asks the question, without first revealing anything about their own salary expectations? Sometimes the number actually comes up as a mandatory field in the online questionnaire for job application, before you've even had a chance to discuss the job. Or is this actually an opportunity to take charge?

------------------------------
Natalya Sokolovskaya P.E.,M.ASCE
Wynnewood PA
(323)382-6176
------------------------------

It is a loaded question.  As the job seeker, you have very few cards in your hand and this is one of them.

It is wrong because HR departments (engineering firms and in other fields) are known to use job interviews as market research opportunities and free consultations.  The market data is available through ASCE, LinkedIn, and other platforms.  There is no reason to ask.

It is wrong because it undercuts your ability to have a good faith negotiation on salary when the offer is presented.  The employer knows your number and has all the power.  This is a practice wide problem and keeps salaries down.  It is not a problem exclusive to engineering.

There are a few ways to handle this.  First, ask the salary range for the position upfront.  If the high end is not what you are looking for, do not go any further.  You can also respond to the question with a range as well. 

If you already have a job, never tell interviewer how much you are making.  When you do that you give up your power in negotiation.  Tell them, "I cannot tell you how much I am making right now, but I would be willing to consider making a jump for $xxx,xxx."  At that point your interview might be over, but at least you know it was not due to poor interview skills or resume.

The mandatory online form is a problem.  You can enter a number that is low and write a comment about negotiation of salary in your open comment section.  Essentially, the employer is likely sorting the applications and you may end up in the "not being considered" pile.  Hand deliver or email your resume directly if possible.

It is very hard to tell someone in a pinch not to settle.  However, your value to a firm is not a number, but the skills and performance that you present in your resume and interview,  An interviewer who cannot recognize these qualities and offer to compensate them accordingly is not doing his practice or others a good service.  It cheapens the profession, leads to high turnover, and a culture where you are viewed as a resource to be exploited, not a responsible professional.  It might be a good reason not to work for that firm. 

I have also seen geography given as a big reason for offering low salaries.  I have been told "you only see salaries like that in NYC, SF, & DC."  So what?  I see the ability to travel quickly and connect via the internet as a way to break down these geographic barriers. 

    


------------------------------
Chad Morrison P.E.,M.ASCE
Professional Engineer
Greenville RI
(401)231-4870 EXT 2207
------------------------------

Chad,

Very good idea to insist on their range of salaries for this position! This levels the playing field.
For the online forms, I usually put in 0.00 with a comment below if possible. Maybe 0s also get screened out, who knows...

------------------------------
Natalya Sokolovskaya P.E.,M.ASCE
Wynnewood PA
(323)382-6176
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-26-2019 08:24
From: Chad Morrison
Subject: "Only if you show yours" - What's the etiquette for the expected salary question?

It is a loaded question.  As the job seeker, you have very few cards in your hand and this is one of them.

It is wrong because HR departments (engineering firms and in other fields) are known to use job interviews as market research opportunities and free consultations.  The market data is available through ASCE, LinkedIn, and other platforms.  There is no reason to ask.

It is wrong because it undercuts your ability to have a good faith negotiation on salary when the offer is presented.  The employer knows your number and has all the power.  This is a practice wide problem and keeps salaries down.  It is not a problem exclusive to engineering.

There are a few ways to handle this.  First, ask the salary range for the position upfront.  If the high end is not what you are looking for, do not go any further.  You can also respond to the question with a range as well.

If you already have a job, never tell interviewer how much you are making.  When you do that you give up your power in negotiation.  Tell them, "I cannot tell you how much I am making right now, but I would be willing to consider making a jump for $xxx,xxx."  At that point your interview might be over, but at least you know it was not due to poor interview skills or resume.

The mandatory online form is a problem.  You can enter a number that is low and write a comment about negotiation of salary in your open comment section.  Essentially, the employer is likely sorting the applications and you may end up in the "not being considered" pile.  Hand deliver or email your resume directly if possible.

It is very hard to tell someone in a pinch not to settle.  However, your value to a firm is not a number, but the skills and performance that you present in your resume and interview,  An interviewer who cannot recognize these qualities and offer to compensate them accordingly is not doing his practice or others a good service.  It cheapens the profession, leads to high turnover, and a culture where you are viewed as a resource to be exploited, not a responsible professional.  It might be a good reason not to work for that firm.

I have also seen geography given as a big reason for offering low salaries.  I have been told "you only see salaries like that in NYC, SF, & DC."  That's nice, I live in RI with my family, I am licensed to practice in DC.  The cost of living here is not that cheap.  I see the ability to travel quickly and connect via the internet as a way to break down these geographic barriers.




------------------------------
Chad Morrison P.E.,M.ASCE
Professional Engineer
Greenville RI
(401)231-4870 EXT 2207
------------------------------

This article is helpful here, and backs up the idea for putting in 0 for online applications: https://www.fastcompany.com/40506728/what-to-say-when-youre-asked-what-is-your-current-salary

Since you've moved from CA, as other responders have commented, I think you could pretty easily say, "I know what I made in CA is not really relevant here, so what are the ranges for this position here, and what sorts of benefits do you provide?."

That second question about benefits may be especially relevant.........There are a lot of benefits Californians have because of state laws that are rare in PA, for example the CA laws around family leave.

Some states are starting to pass regulations making this question illegal. Unfortunately, as far as I know PA is not one of them (I live in PA also).


------------------------------
Stephanie Slocum P.E.
Founder
Engineers Rising LLC
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-26-2019 10:20
From: Natalya Sokolovskaya
Subject: "Only if you show yours" - What's the etiquette for the expected salary question?

Chad,

Very good idea to insist on their range of salaries for this position! This levels the playing field.
For the online forms, I usually put in 0.00 with a comment below if possible. Maybe 0s also get screened out, who knows...

------------------------------
Natalya Sokolovskaya P.E.,M.ASCE
Wynnewood PA
(323)382-6176
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 04-26-2019 08:24
From: Chad Morrison
Subject: "Only if you show yours" - What's the etiquette for the expected salary question?

It is a loaded question.  As the job seeker, you have very few cards in your hand and this is one of them.

It is wrong because HR departments (engineering firms and in other fields) are known to use job interviews as market research opportunities and free consultations.  The market data is available through ASCE, LinkedIn, and other platforms.  There is no reason to ask.

It is wrong because it undercuts your ability to have a good faith negotiation on salary when the offer is presented.  The employer knows your number and has all the power.  This is a practice wide problem and keeps salaries down.  It is not a problem exclusive to engineering.

There are a few ways to handle this.  First, ask the salary range for the position upfront.  If the high end is not what you are looking for, do not go any further.  You can also respond to the question with a range as well.

If you already have a job, never tell interviewer how much you are making.  When you do that you give up your power in negotiation.  Tell them, "I cannot tell you how much I am making right now, but I would be willing to consider making a jump for $xxx,xxx."  At that point your interview might be over, but at least you know it was not due to poor interview skills or resume.

The mandatory online form is a problem.  You can enter a number that is low and write a comment about negotiation of salary in your open comment section.  Essentially, the employer is likely sorting the applications and you may end up in the "not being considered" pile.  Hand deliver or email your resume directly if possible.

It is very hard to tell someone in a pinch not to settle.  However, your value to a firm is not a number, but the skills and performance that you present in your resume and interview,  An interviewer who cannot recognize these qualities and offer to compensate them accordingly is not doing his practice or others a good service.  It cheapens the profession, leads to high turnover, and a culture where you are viewed as a resource to be exploited, not a responsible professional.  It might be a good reason not to work for that firm.

I have also seen geography given as a big reason for offering low salaries.  I have been told "you only see salaries like that in NYC, SF, & DC."  That's nice, I live in RI with my family, I am licensed to practice in DC.  The cost of living here is not that cheap.  I see the ability to travel quickly and connect via the internet as a way to break down these geographic barriers.




------------------------------
Chad Morrison P.E.,M.ASCE
Professional Engineer
Greenville RI
(401)231-4870 EXT 2207

Thank you, Stephanie,
The article is very helpful. Main take out for me - be prepared for the question and have a ready answer or non-answer that will turn the conversation in your favor.

------------------------------
Natalya Sokolovskaya P.E.,M.ASCE
Wynnewood PA
(323)382-6176
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-27-2019 20:06
From: Stephanie Slocum
Subject: "Only if you show yours" - What's the etiquette for the expected salary question?

This article is helpful here, and backs up the idea for putting in 0 for online applications: https://www.fastcompany.com/40506728/what-to-say-when-youre-asked-what-is-your-current-salary

Since you've moved from CA, as other responders have commented, I think you could pretty easily say, "I know what I made in CA is not really relevant here, so what are the ranges for this position here, and what sorts of benefits do you provide?."

That second question about benefits may be especially relevant.........There are a lot of benefits Californians have because of state laws that are rare in PA, for example the CA laws around family leave.

Some states are starting to pass regulations making this question illegal. Unfortunately, as far as I know PA is not one of them (I live in PA also).


------------------------------
Stephanie Slocum P.E.
Founder
Engineers Rising LLC
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 04-26-2019 10:20
From: Natalya Sokolovskaya
Subject: "Only if you show yours" - What's the etiquette for the expected salary question?

Chad,

Very good idea to insist on their range of salaries for this position! This levels the playing field.
For the online forms, I usually put in 0.00 with a comment below if possible. Maybe 0s also get screened out, who knows...

------------------------------
Natalya Sokolovskaya P.E.,M.ASCE
Wynnewood PA
(323)382-6176


Original Message:
Sent: 04-26-2019 08:24
From: Chad Morrison
Subject: "Only if you show yours" - What's the etiquette for the expected salary question?

It is a loaded question.  As the job seeker, you have very few cards in your hand and this is one of them.

It is wrong because HR departments (engineering firms and in other fields) are known to use job interviews as market research opportunities and free consultations.  The market data is available through ASCE, LinkedIn, and other platforms.  There is no reason to ask.

It is wrong because it undercuts your ability to have a good faith negotiation on salary when the offer is presented.  The employer knows your number and has all the power.  This is a practice wide problem and keeps salaries down.  It is not a problem exclusive to engineering.

There are a few ways to handle this.  First, ask the salary range for the position upfront.  If the high end is not what you are looking for, do not go any further.  You can also respond to the question with a range as well.

If you already have a job, never tell interviewer how much you are making.  When you do that you give up your power in negotiation.  Tell them, "I cannot tell you how much I am making right now, but I would be willing to consider making a jump for $xxx,xxx."  At that point your interview might be over, but at least you know it was not due to poor interview skills or resume.

The mandatory online form is a problem.  You can enter a number that is low and write a comment about negotiation of salary in your open comment section.  Essentially, the employer is likely sorting the applications and you may end up in the "not being considered" pile.  Hand deliver or email your resume directly if possible.

It is very hard to tell someone in a pinch not to settle.  However, your value to a firm is not a number, but the skills and performance that you present in your resume and interview,  An interviewer who cannot recognize these qualities and offer to compensate them accordingly is not doing his practice or others a good service.  It cheapens the profession, leads to high turnover, and a culture where you are viewed as a resource to be exploited, not a responsible professional.  It might be a good reason not to work for that firm.

I have also seen geography given as a big reason for offering low salaries.  I have been told "you only see salaries like that in NYC, SF, & DC."  That's nice, I live in RI with my family, I am licensed to practice in DC.  The cost of living here is not that cheap.  I see the ability to travel quickly and connect via the internet as a way to break down these geographic barriers.




------------------------------
Chad Morrison P.E.,M.ASCE
Professional Engineer
Greenville RI
(401)231-4870 EXT 2207