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Hi Jennifer, 
Thanks for this question. Most DEI programs are performative and many workplaces do not have psychological safety which is a requirement of a successful DEI program. In my experience there is DEI dishonesty, which this article spells out https://www.stylist.co.uk/life/careers/diversity-dishonesty-workplace-psychology/777267. In addition, it takes a unique skillset in an infrastructure organization for the DEI Manager since there are unique issues in civil engineering (the oldest engineering profession that is still a boys club). There is 30 years of data showing why women and minorities leave engineering at extremely high rates (SWE data shows only 30% of women who earn bachelor's degrees in engineering work in engineering 20 years later) from SWE, NSF, and others. I participated in this study, numerous years ago but little has changed. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnDrzvBqRiw). We know that a major reason why women and minorities leave engineering is discrimination and harassment, but few organizations are addressing these issues since they are not supposed to be happening in organizations. I interviewed approximately 100 female civil engineers from CEOs to staff and 100% of them had experienced discrimination and/or harassment. This is the norm, not the exception as a female in civil engineering. One of the most powerful leadership book that details my experience as an Asian female engineer is The First, the Few, and the Only. I suspect most women in engineering will also relate to the experiences. She Engineers is also great. The other phenomena that happens is that women don't help women and tokenism (diverse people are put in management but they don't want to impact change or they don't feel safe to share their experiences authentically). This is also a great TED talk https://www.ted.com/talks/rha_goddess_and_deepa_purushothaman_4_ways_to_redefine_power_at_work_to_include_women_of_color?language=en.

I'm not surprised that DEI managers are being let go because I never felt the effort was real to begin with in 2020. We have discussing women in STEM for over 30 years (I was in the first women in engineering class at Illinois in 1993) and spent billions of dollars but we haven't made significant change. In addition, when I speak out I am often gaslight (my company is the problem and if I go to another place it is better or it is better than it used to be). I was told in college that I would be provided equal opportunities, the profession needed my skillset (hard and soft skills), and we civil engineers need to represent the public that we serve. It was lies and we are telling the next generation the same thing I was told. I did not expect to be a trailblazer. I thought the problems were solved in the 1970-1980s. Until we tell the truth about our experiences, I feel that nothing will change. ASCE President Maria Lehman is passionate about this issue. It is a privilege to serve in ASCE leadership to work on these issues to modernize our profession but it is emotional draining. I believe it will take a partnership of universities, employers, and professional organizations to impact real change since each has a different role to play. 

Sincerely,
Preeti

To any younger women that may be scared off by this assessment of the industry, please know that this isn't every woman's experience. I know a lot of girls from my graduating class that are thriving and supported in the industry. I know women ahead of me in our firm that are great examples of what it looks like to have a fulfilling career at a company that values our contributions. I have, from the beginning of my career, been respected by fellow engineers, architects, contractors, municipal employees, clients, etc. Sure, I've run into someone here or there that was disrespectful, but any industry has people that way, and they treat more than just women poorly. As someone that has been in industry for nearly a decade now, I have not personally experienced a "boys club" aspect of industry.

Not all statistics on the percent of women leaving the workforce are an indication of wrongdoing on the part of their companies or industry. One of my friends was given reduced hours, flexibility, etc. but she still decided she would rather be home with her children. There is nothing wrong with that, but she would be counted in a stat of women not staying in industry.

I'm not saying there aren't any problems to address. I'm not saying there isn't improvement to be made. I'm not saying that my experience speaks for the majority experience. But what I am saying is to please not take a bleak outlook from some as a reason to not consider this profession. There are many of us that are thriving and supported, and we'd love for you to join us. 

Hi Jennifer, 
Thanks for this question. Most DEI programs are performative and many workplaces do not have psychological safety which is a requirement of a successful DEI program. In my experience there is DEI dishonesty, which this article spells out https://www.stylist.co.uk/life/careers/diversity-dishonesty-workplace-psychology/777267. In addition, it takes a unique skillset in an infrastructure organization for the DEI Manager since there are unique issues in civil engineering (the oldest engineering profession that is still a boys club). There is 30 years of data showing why women and minorities leave engineering at extremely high rates (SWE data shows only 30% of women who earn bachelor's degrees in engineering work in engineering 20 years later) from SWE, NSF, and others. I participated in this study, numerous years ago but little has changed. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnDrzvBqRiw). We know that a major reason why women and minorities leave engineering is discrimination and harassment, but few organizations are addressing these issues since they are not supposed to be happening in organizations. I interviewed approximately 100 female civil engineers from CEOs to staff and 100% of them had experienced discrimination and/or harassment. This is the norm, not the exception as a female in civil engineering. One of the most powerful leadership book that details my experience as an Asian female engineer is The First, the Few, and the Only. I suspect most women in engineering will also relate to the experiences. She Engineers is also great. The other phenomena that happens is that women don't help women and tokenism (diverse people are put in management but they don't want to impact change or they don't feel safe to share their experiences authentically). This is also a great TED talk https://www.ted.com/talks/rha_goddess_and_deepa_purushothaman_4_ways_to_redefine_power_at_work_to_include_women_of_color?language=en.

I'm not surprised that DEI managers are being let go because I never felt the effort was real to begin with in 2020. We have discussing women in STEM for over 30 years (I was in the first women in engineering class at Illinois in 1993) and spent billions of dollars but we haven't made significant change. In addition, when I speak out I am often gaslight (my company is the problem and if I go to another place it is better or it is better than it used to be). I was told in college that I would be provided equal opportunities, the profession needed my skillset (hard and soft skills), and we civil engineers need to represent the public that we serve. It was lies and we are telling the next generation the same thing I was told. I did not expect to be a trailblazer. I thought the problems were solved in the 1970-1980s. Until we tell the truth about our experiences, I feel that nothing will change. ASCE President Maria Lehman is passionate about this issue. It is a privilege to serve in ASCE leadership to work on these issues to modernize our profession but it is emotional draining. I believe it will take a partnership of universities, employers, and professional organizations to impact real change since each has a different role to play. 

Sincerely,
Preeti

To any younger women that may be scared off by this assessment of the industry, please know that this isn't every woman's experience. I know a lot of girls from my graduating class that are thriving and supported in the industry. I know women ahead of me in our firm that are great examples of what it looks like to have a fulfilling career at a company that values our contributions. I have, from the beginning of my career, been respected by fellow engineers, architects, contractors, municipal employees, clients, etc. Sure, I've run into someone here or there that was disrespectful, but any industry has people that way, and they treat more than just women poorly. As someone that has been in industry for nearly a decade now, I have not personally experienced a "boys club" aspect of industry.

Not all statistics on the percent of women leaving the workforce are an indication of wrongdoing on the part of their companies or industry. One of my friends was given reduced hours, flexibility, etc. but she still decided she would rather be home with her children. There is nothing wrong with that, but she would be counted in a stat of women not staying in industry.

I'm not saying there aren't any problems to address. I'm not saying there isn't improvement to be made. I'm not saying that my experience speaks for the majority experience. But what I am saying is to please not take a bleak outlook from some as a reason to not consider this profession. There are many of us that are thriving and supported, and we'd love for you to join us. 

Hi Jennifer, 
Thanks for this question. Most DEI programs are performative and many workplaces do not have psychological safety which is a requirement of a successful DEI program. In my experience there is DEI dishonesty, which this article spells out https://www.stylist.co.uk/life/careers/diversity-dishonesty-workplace-psychology/777267. In addition, it takes a unique skillset in an infrastructure organization for the DEI Manager since there are unique issues in civil engineering (the oldest engineering profession that is still a boys club). There is 30 years of data showing why women and minorities leave engineering at extremely high rates (SWE data shows only 30% of women who earn bachelor's degrees in engineering work in engineering 20 years later) from SWE, NSF, and others. I participated in this study, numerous years ago but little has changed. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnDrzvBqRiw). We know that a major reason why women and minorities leave engineering is discrimination and harassment, but few organizations are addressing these issues since they are not supposed to be happening in organizations. I interviewed approximately 100 female civil engineers from CEOs to staff and 100% of them had experienced discrimination and/or harassment. This is the norm, not the exception as a female in civil engineering. One of the most powerful leadership book that details my experience as an Asian female engineer is The First, the Few, and the Only. I suspect most women in engineering will also relate to the experiences. She Engineers is also great. The other phenomena that happens is that women don't help women and tokenism (diverse people are put in management but they don't want to impact change or they don't feel safe to share their experiences authentically). This is also a great TED talk https://www.ted.com/talks/rha_goddess_and_deepa_purushothaman_4_ways_to_redefine_power_at_work_to_include_women_of_color?language=en.

I'm not surprised that DEI managers are being let go because I never felt the effort was real to begin with in 2020. We have discussing women in STEM for over 30 years (I was in the first women in engineering class at Illinois in 1993) and spent billions of dollars but we haven't made significant change. In addition, when I speak out I am often gaslight (my company is the problem and if I go to another place it is better or it is better than it used to be). I was told in college that I would be provided equal opportunities, the profession needed my skillset (hard and soft skills), and we civil engineers need to represent the public that we serve. It was lies and we are telling the next generation the same thing I was told. I did not expect to be a trailblazer. I thought the problems were solved in the 1970-1980s. Until we tell the truth about our experiences, I feel that nothing will change. ASCE President Maria Lehman is passionate about this issue. It is a privilege to serve in ASCE leadership to work on these issues to modernize our profession but it is emotional draining. I believe it will take a partnership of universities, employers, and professional organizations to impact real change since each has a different role to play. 

Sincerely,
Preeti

I agree with your viewpoint, Heidi. My experience as a supervisor and mentor (in the USA, only) showed that the resistance women faced in the 1950s and 60s engineering workplace diminished and became rare by the 1980s. Jennifer's post and my earlier comment had to do with corporate commitments to DEI, which are important in recruiting and retaining the best talent and best combinations of talents in an organization.
A sub-issue is sexual harassment. I've had to act to protect both male and female staff from excessive attention at times. It wasn't a common problem in the organizations I worked in, but it persisted through the years.

Bill

To any younger women that may be scared off by this assessment of the industry, please know that this isn't every woman's experience. I know a lot of girls from my graduating class that are thriving and supported in the industry. I know women ahead of me in our firm that are great examples of what it looks like to have a fulfilling career at a company that values our contributions. I have, from the beginning of my career, been respected by fellow engineers, architects, contractors, municipal employees, clients, etc. Sure, I've run into someone here or there that was disrespectful, but any industry has people that way, and they treat more than just women poorly. As someone that has been in industry for nearly a decade now, I have not personally experienced a "boys club" aspect of industry.

Not all statistics on the percent of women leaving the workforce are an indication of wrongdoing on the part of their companies or industry. One of my friends was given reduced hours, flexibility, etc. but she still decided she would rather be home with her children. There is nothing wrong with that, but she would be counted in a stat of women not staying in industry.

I'm not saying there aren't any problems to address. I'm not saying there isn't improvement to be made. I'm not saying that my experience speaks for the majority experience. But what I am saying is to please not take a bleak outlook from some as a reason to not consider this profession. There are many of us that are thriving and supported, and we'd love for you to join us. 

Hi Jennifer, 
Thanks for this question. Most DEI programs are performative and many workplaces do not have psychological safety which is a requirement of a successful DEI program. In my experience there is DEI dishonesty, which this article spells out https://www.stylist.co.uk/life/careers/diversity-dishonesty-workplace-psychology/777267. In addition, it takes a unique skillset in an infrastructure organization for the DEI Manager since there are unique issues in civil engineering (the oldest engineering profession that is still a boys club). There is 30 years of data showing why women and minorities leave engineering at extremely high rates (SWE data shows only 30% of women who earn bachelor's degrees in engineering work in engineering 20 years later) from SWE, NSF, and others. I participated in this study, numerous years ago but little has changed. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnDrzvBqRiw). We know that a major reason why women and minorities leave engineering is discrimination and harassment, but few organizations are addressing these issues since they are not supposed to be happening in organizations. I interviewed approximately 100 female civil engineers from CEOs to staff and 100% of them had experienced discrimination and/or harassment. This is the norm, not the exception as a female in civil engineering. One of the most powerful leadership book that details my experience as an Asian female engineer is The First, the Few, and the Only. I suspect most women in engineering will also relate to the experiences. She Engineers is also great. The other phenomena that happens is that women don't help women and tokenism (diverse people are put in management but they don't want to impact change or they don't feel safe to share their experiences authentically). This is also a great TED talk https://www.ted.com/talks/rha_goddess_and_deepa_purushothaman_4_ways_to_redefine_power_at_work_to_include_women_of_color?language=en.

I'm not surprised that DEI managers are being let go because I never felt the effort was real to begin with in 2020. We have discussing women in STEM for over 30 years (I was in the first women in engineering class at Illinois in 1993) and spent billions of dollars but we haven't made significant change. In addition, when I speak out I am often gaslight (my company is the problem and if I go to another place it is better or it is better than it used to be). I was told in college that I would be provided equal opportunities, the profession needed my skillset (hard and soft skills), and we civil engineers need to represent the public that we serve. It was lies and we are telling the next generation the same thing I was told. I did not expect to be a trailblazer. I thought the problems were solved in the 1970-1980s. Until we tell the truth about our experiences, I feel that nothing will change. ASCE President Maria Lehman is passionate about this issue. It is a privilege to serve in ASCE leadership to work on these issues to modernize our profession but it is emotional draining. I believe it will take a partnership of universities, employers, and professional organizations to impact real change since each has a different role to play. 

Sincerely,
Preeti

Dear All:  Interesting discussion on DE&I.  I consider DE&I unethical and in violation of the US Civil Rights Act of 1964 and subsequent related acts which prohibit discrimination.  A few quotes from an article (https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/civil-rights-act) about the Civil Rights Act of 1964 are below.

"This act, signed into law by President Lyndon Johnson on July 2, 1964, prohibited discrimination in public places, provided for the integration of schools and other public facilities, and made employment discrimination illegal. It was the most sweeping civil rights legislation since Reconstruction."

"[The associated laws] prohibit discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, national origin, disability, or age in hiring, promoting, firing, setting wages, testing, training, apprenticeship, and all other terms and conditions of employment."

I am a proponent of qualifications-based, competitive hiring and related personnel practices that include clear definitions of the qualification requirements and thorough documentation of the candidate evaluations using a fixed process by the selection committee comprising at least three appropriate persons.

Craig Goodall, PE
Civil Engineer
Amelia Island, Florida

I agree with your viewpoint, Heidi. My experience as a supervisor and mentor (in the USA, only) showed that the resistance women faced in the 1950s and 60s engineering workplace diminished and became rare by the 1980s. Jennifer's post and my earlier comment had to do with corporate commitments to DEI, which are important in recruiting and retaining the best talent and best combinations of talents in an organization.
A sub-issue is sexual harassment. I've had to act to protect both male and female staff from excessive attention at times. It wasn't a common problem in the organizations I worked in, but it persisted through the years.

Bill

To any younger women that may be scared off by this assessment of the industry, please know that this isn't every woman's experience. I know a lot of girls from my graduating class that are thriving and supported in the industry. I know women ahead of me in our firm that are great examples of what it looks like to have a fulfilling career at a company that values our contributions. I have, from the beginning of my career, been respected by fellow engineers, architects, contractors, municipal employees, clients, etc. Sure, I've run into someone here or there that was disrespectful, but any industry has people that way, and they treat more than just women poorly. As someone that has been in industry for nearly a decade now, I have not personally experienced a "boys club" aspect of industry.

Not all statistics on the percent of women leaving the workforce are an indication of wrongdoing on the part of their companies or industry. One of my friends was given reduced hours, flexibility, etc. but she still decided she would rather be home with her children. There is nothing wrong with that, but she would be counted in a stat of women not staying in industry.

I'm not saying there aren't any problems to address. I'm not saying there isn't improvement to be made. I'm not saying that my experience speaks for the majority experience. But what I am saying is to please not take a bleak outlook from some as a reason to not consider this profession. There are many of us that are thriving and supported, and we'd love for you to join us. 

Hi Jennifer, 
Thanks for this question. Most DEI programs are performative and many workplaces do not have psychological safety which is a requirement of a successful DEI program. In my experience there is DEI dishonesty, which this article spells out https://www.stylist.co.uk/life/careers/diversity-dishonesty-workplace-psychology/777267. In addition, it takes a unique skillset in an infrastructure organization for the DEI Manager since there are unique issues in civil engineering (the oldest engineering profession that is still a boys club). There is 30 years of data showing why women and minorities leave engineering at extremely high rates (SWE data shows only 30% of women who earn bachelor's degrees in engineering work in engineering 20 years later) from SWE, NSF, and others. I participated in this study, numerous years ago but little has changed. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnDrzvBqRiw). We know that a major reason why women and minorities leave engineering is discrimination and harassment, but few organizations are addressing these issues since they are not supposed to be happening in organizations. I interviewed approximately 100 female civil engineers from CEOs to staff and 100% of them had experienced discrimination and/or harassment. This is the norm, not the exception as a female in civil engineering. One of the most powerful leadership book that details my experience as an Asian female engineer is The First, the Few, and the Only. I suspect most women in engineering will also relate to the experiences. She Engineers is also great. The other phenomena that happens is that women don't help women and tokenism (diverse people are put in management but they don't want to impact change or they don't feel safe to share their experiences authentically). This is also a great TED talk https://www.ted.com/talks/rha_goddess_and_deepa_purushothaman_4_ways_to_redefine_power_at_work_to_include_women_of_color?language=en.

I'm not surprised that DEI managers are being let go because I never felt the effort was real to begin with in 2020. We have discussing women in STEM for over 30 years (I was in the first women in engineering class at Illinois in 1993) and spent billions of dollars but we haven't made significant change. In addition, when I speak out I am often gaslight (my company is the problem and if I go to another place it is better or it is better than it used to be). I was told in college that I would be provided equal opportunities, the profession needed my skillset (hard and soft skills), and we civil engineers need to represent the public that we serve. It was lies and we are telling the next generation the same thing I was told. I did not expect to be a trailblazer. I thought the problems were solved in the 1970-1980s. Until we tell the truth about our experiences, I feel that nothing will change. ASCE President Maria Lehman is passionate about this issue. It is a privilege to serve in ASCE leadership to work on these issues to modernize our profession but it is emotional draining. I believe it will take a partnership of universities, employers, and professional organizations to impact real change since each has a different role to play. 

Sincerely,
Preeti

Dear All:  Interesting discussion on DE&I.  I consider DE&I unethical and in violation of the US Civil Rights Act of 1964 and subsequent related acts which prohibit discrimination.  A few quotes from an article (https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/civil-rights-act) about the Civil Rights Act of 1964 are below.

"This act, signed into law by President Lyndon Johnson on July 2, 1964, prohibited discrimination in public places, provided for the integration of schools and other public facilities, and made employment discrimination illegal. It was the most sweeping civil rights legislation since Reconstruction."

"[The associated laws] prohibit discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, national origin, disability, or age in hiring, promoting, firing, setting wages, testing, training, apprenticeship, and all other terms and conditions of employment."

I am a proponent of qualifications-based, competitive hiring and related personnel practices that include clear definitions of the qualification requirements and thorough documentation of the candidate evaluations using a fixed process by the selection committee comprising at least three appropriate persons.

Craig Goodall, PE
Civil Engineer
Amelia Island, Florida

I agree with your viewpoint, Heidi. My experience as a supervisor and mentor (in the USA, only) showed that the resistance women faced in the 1950s and 60s engineering workplace diminished and became rare by the 1980s. Jennifer's post and my earlier comment had to do with corporate commitments to DEI, which are important in recruiting and retaining the best talent and best combinations of talents in an organization.
A sub-issue is sexual harassment. I've had to act to protect both male and female staff from excessive attention at times. It wasn't a common problem in the organizations I worked in, but it persisted through the years.

Bill

To any younger women that may be scared off by this assessment of the industry, please know that this isn't every woman's experience. I know a lot of girls from my graduating class that are thriving and supported in the industry. I know women ahead of me in our firm that are great examples of what it looks like to have a fulfilling career at a company that values our contributions. I have, from the beginning of my career, been respected by fellow engineers, architects, contractors, municipal employees, clients, etc. Sure, I've run into someone here or there that was disrespectful, but any industry has people that way, and they treat more than just women poorly. As someone that has been in industry for nearly a decade now, I have not personally experienced a "boys club" aspect of industry.

Not all statistics on the percent of women leaving the workforce are an indication of wrongdoing on the part of their companies or industry. One of my friends was given reduced hours, flexibility, etc. but she still decided she would rather be home with her children. There is nothing wrong with that, but she would be counted in a stat of women not staying in industry.

I'm not saying there aren't any problems to address. I'm not saying there isn't improvement to be made. I'm not saying that my experience speaks for the majority experience. But what I am saying is to please not take a bleak outlook from some as a reason to not consider this profession. There are many of us that are thriving and supported, and we'd love for you to join us. 

Hi Jennifer, 
Thanks for this question. Most DEI programs are performative and many workplaces do not have psychological safety which is a requirement of a successful DEI program. In my experience there is DEI dishonesty, which this article spells out https://www.stylist.co.uk/life/careers/diversity-dishonesty-workplace-psychology/777267. In addition, it takes a unique skillset in an infrastructure organization for the DEI Manager since there are unique issues in civil engineering (the oldest engineering profession that is still a boys club). There is 30 years of data showing why women and minorities leave engineering at extremely high rates (SWE data shows only 30% of women who earn bachelor's degrees in engineering work in engineering 20 years later) from SWE, NSF, and others. I participated in this study, numerous years ago but little has changed. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnDrzvBqRiw). We know that a major reason why women and minorities leave engineering is discrimination and harassment, but few organizations are addressing these issues since they are not supposed to be happening in organizations. I interviewed approximately 100 female civil engineers from CEOs to staff and 100% of them had experienced discrimination and/or harassment. This is the norm, not the exception as a female in civil engineering. One of the most powerful leadership book that details my experience as an Asian female engineer is The First, the Few, and the Only. I suspect most women in engineering will also relate to the experiences. She Engineers is also great. The other phenomena that happens is that women don't help women and tokenism (diverse people are put in management but they don't want to impact change or they don't feel safe to share their experiences authentically). This is also a great TED talk https://www.ted.com/talks/rha_goddess_and_deepa_purushothaman_4_ways_to_redefine_power_at_work_to_include_women_of_color?language=en.

I'm not surprised that DEI managers are being let go because I never felt the effort was real to begin with in 2020. We have discussing women in STEM for over 30 years (I was in the first women in engineering class at Illinois in 1993) and spent billions of dollars but we haven't made significant change. In addition, when I speak out I am often gaslight (my company is the problem and if I go to another place it is better or it is better than it used to be). I was told in college that I would be provided equal opportunities, the profession needed my skillset (hard and soft skills), and we civil engineers need to represent the public that we serve. It was lies and we are telling the next generation the same thing I was told. I did not expect to be a trailblazer. I thought the problems were solved in the 1970-1980s. Until we tell the truth about our experiences, I feel that nothing will change. ASCE President Maria Lehman is passionate about this issue. It is a privilege to serve in ASCE leadership to work on these issues to modernize our profession but it is emotional draining. I believe it will take a partnership of universities, employers, and professional organizations to impact real change since each has a different role to play. 

Sincerely,
Preeti

It appears we are operating with different definitions of DEI, Mr. Goodall. The DEI that I am familiar with is the epitome of, "qualifications-based, competitive hiring and related personnel practices." It is the anthesis of the old-boy network recruiting and promotion practices that fed friends, relatives, and "people who look like me" into organizations and upper management. DEI means casting as wide a net as possible and encouraging everyone to apply. Once that is done, hiring and promotion are then truly based on qualifications and ability, not just the best qualifications of those who look like me. It is not quotas or mandatory diversity hires.

Given that, there is no idea so pure that it cannot be corrupted. There are examples of managers who don't know how, or can't be troubled, to recruit widely, so they take a short cut that doesn't work. That's not DEI. That's poor management blaming its failures on something else.

Dear All:  Interesting discussion on DE&I.  I consider DE&I unethical and in violation of the US Civil Rights Act of 1964 and subsequent related acts which prohibit discrimination.  A few quotes from an article (https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/civil-rights-act) about the Civil Rights Act of 1964 are below.

"This act, signed into law by President Lyndon Johnson on July 2, 1964, prohibited discrimination in public places, provided for the integration of schools and other public facilities, and made employment discrimination illegal. It was the most sweeping civil rights legislation since Reconstruction."

"[The associated laws] prohibit discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, national origin, disability, or age in hiring, promoting, firing, setting wages, testing, training, apprenticeship, and all other terms and conditions of employment."

I am a proponent of qualifications-based, competitive hiring and related personnel practices that include clear definitions of the qualification requirements and thorough documentation of the candidate evaluations using a fixed process by the selection committee comprising at least three appropriate persons.

Craig Goodall, PE
Civil Engineer
Amelia Island, Florida

I agree with your viewpoint, Heidi. My experience as a supervisor and mentor (in the USA, only) showed that the resistance women faced in the 1950s and 60s engineering workplace diminished and became rare by the 1980s. Jennifer's post and my earlier comment had to do with corporate commitments to DEI, which are important in recruiting and retaining the best talent and best combinations of talents in an organization.
A sub-issue is sexual harassment. I've had to act to protect both male and female staff from excessive attention at times. It wasn't a common problem in the organizations I worked in, but it persisted through the years.

Bill

To any younger women that may be scared off by this assessment of the industry, please know that this isn't every woman's experience. I know a lot of girls from my graduating class that are thriving and supported in the industry. I know women ahead of me in our firm that are great examples of what it looks like to have a fulfilling career at a company that values our contributions. I have, from the beginning of my career, been respected by fellow engineers, architects, contractors, municipal employees, clients, etc. Sure, I've run into someone here or there that was disrespectful, but any industry has people that way, and they treat more than just women poorly. As someone that has been in industry for nearly a decade now, I have not personally experienced a "boys club" aspect of industry.

Not all statistics on the percent of women leaving the workforce are an indication of wrongdoing on the part of their companies or industry. One of my friends was given reduced hours, flexibility, etc. but she still decided she would rather be home with her children. There is nothing wrong with that, but she would be counted in a stat of women not staying in industry.

I'm not saying there aren't any problems to address. I'm not saying there isn't improvement to be made. I'm not saying that my experience speaks for the majority experience. But what I am saying is to please not take a bleak outlook from some as a reason to not consider this profession. There are many of us that are thriving and supported, and we'd love for you to join us. 

Hi Jennifer, 
Thanks for this question. Most DEI programs are performative and many workplaces do not have psychological safety which is a requirement of a successful DEI program. In my experience there is DEI dishonesty, which this article spells out https://www.stylist.co.uk/life/careers/diversity-dishonesty-workplace-psychology/777267. In addition, it takes a unique skillset in an infrastructure organization for the DEI Manager since there are unique issues in civil engineering (the oldest engineering profession that is still a boys club). There is 30 years of data showing why women and minorities leave engineering at extremely high rates (SWE data shows only 30% of women who earn bachelor's degrees in engineering work in engineering 20 years later) from SWE, NSF, and others. I participated in this study, numerous years ago but little has changed. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnDrzvBqRiw). We know that a major reason why women and minorities leave engineering is discrimination and harassment, but few organizations are addressing these issues since they are not supposed to be happening in organizations. I interviewed approximately 100 female civil engineers from CEOs to staff and 100% of them had experienced discrimination and/or harassment. This is the norm, not the exception as a female in civil engineering. One of the most powerful leadership book that details my experience as an Asian female engineer is The First, the Few, and the Only. I suspect most women in engineering will also relate to the experiences. She Engineers is also great. The other phenomena that happens is that women don't help women and tokenism (diverse people are put in management but they don't want to impact change or they don't feel safe to share their experiences authentically). This is also a great TED talk https://www.ted.com/talks/rha_goddess_and_deepa_purushothaman_4_ways_to_redefine_power_at_work_to_include_women_of_color?language=en.

I'm not surprised that DEI managers are being let go because I never felt the effort was real to begin with in 2020. We have discussing women in STEM for over 30 years (I was in the first women in engineering class at Illinois in 1993) and spent billions of dollars but we haven't made significant change. In addition, when I speak out I am often gaslight (my company is the problem and if I go to another place it is better or it is better than it used to be). I was told in college that I would be provided equal opportunities, the profession needed my skillset (hard and soft skills), and we civil engineers need to represent the public that we serve. It was lies and we are telling the next generation the same thing I was told. I did not expect to be a trailblazer. I thought the problems were solved in the 1970-1980s. Until we tell the truth about our experiences, I feel that nothing will change. ASCE President Maria Lehman is passionate about this issue. It is a privilege to serve in ASCE leadership to work on these issues to modernize our profession but it is emotional draining. I believe it will take a partnership of universities, employers, and professional organizations to impact real change since each has a different role to play. 

Sincerely,
Preeti

Dear All:  Interesting discussion on DE&I.  I consider DE&I unethical and in violation of the US Civil Rights Act of 1964 and subsequent related acts which prohibit discrimination.  A few quotes from an article (https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/civil-rights-act) about the Civil Rights Act of 1964 are below.

"This act, signed into law by President Lyndon Johnson on July 2, 1964, prohibited discrimination in public places, provided for the integration of schools and other public facilities, and made employment discrimination illegal. It was the most sweeping civil rights legislation since Reconstruction."

"[The associated laws] prohibit discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, national origin, disability, or age in hiring, promoting, firing, setting wages, testing, training, apprenticeship, and all other terms and conditions of employment."

I am a proponent of qualifications-based, competitive hiring and related personnel practices that include clear definitions of the qualification requirements and thorough documentation of the candidate evaluations using a fixed process by the selection committee comprising at least three appropriate persons.

Craig Goodall, PE
Civil Engineer
Amelia Island, Florida

------------------------------
Craig Goodall P.E., M.ASCE
VICE PRESIDENT
Fernandina Beach FL

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2023 02:43 PM
From: William McAnally
Subject: Is DE&I non-essential?

I agree with your viewpoint, Heidi. My experience as a supervisor and mentor (in the USA, only) showed that the resistance women faced in the 1950s and 60s engineering workplace diminished and became rare by the 1980s. Jennifer's post and my earlier comment had to do with corporate commitments to DEI, which are important in recruiting and retaining the best talent and best combinations of talents in an organization.
A sub-issue is sexual harassment. I've had to act to protect both male and female staff from excessive attention at times. It wasn't a common problem in the organizations I worked in, but it persisted through the years.

Bill

------------------------------
William McAnally Ph.D., P.E., D.CE, D.NE, F.ASCE
ENGINEER
Columbus MS

Original Message:
Sent: 05-23-2023 09:50 AM
From: Heidi Wallace
Subject: Is DE&I non-essential?

To any younger women that may be scared off by this assessment of the industry, please know that this isn't every woman's experience. I know a lot of girls from my graduating class that are thriving and supported in the industry. I know women ahead of me in our firm that are great examples of what it looks like to have a fulfilling career at a company that values our contributions. I have, from the beginning of my career, been respected by fellow engineers, architects, contractors, municipal employees, clients, etc. Sure, I've run into someone here or there that was disrespectful, but any industry has people that way, and they treat more than just women poorly. As someone that has been in industry for nearly a decade now, I have not personally experienced a "boys club" aspect of industry.

Not all statistics on the percent of women leaving the workforce are an indication of wrongdoing on the part of their companies or industry. One of my friends was given reduced hours, flexibility, etc. but she still decided she would rather be home with her children. There is nothing wrong with that, but she would be counted in a stat of women not staying in industry.

I'm not saying there aren't any problems to address. I'm not saying there isn't improvement to be made. I'm not saying that my experience speaks for the majority experience. But what I am saying is to please not take a bleak outlook from some as a reason to not consider this profession. There are many of us that are thriving and supported, and we'd love for you to join us. 

------------------------------
Heidi C. Wallace, P.E., M.ASCE
Tulsa, OK

Original Message:
Sent: 05-22-2023 03:12 PM
From: Preetindar Ghuman
Subject: Is DE&I non-essential?

Hi Jennifer, 
Thanks for this question. Most DEI programs are performative and many workplaces do not have psychological safety which is a requirement of a successful DEI program. In my experience there is DEI dishonesty, which this article spells out https://www.stylist.co.uk/life/careers/diversity-dishonesty-workplace-psychology/777267. In addition, it takes a unique skillset in an infrastructure organization for the DEI Manager since there are unique issues in civil engineering (the oldest engineering profession that is still a boys club). There is 30 years of data showing why women and minorities leave engineering at extremely high rates (SWE data shows only 30% of women who earn bachelor's degrees in engineering work in engineering 20 years later) from SWE, NSF, and others. I participated in this study, numerous years ago but little has changed. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnDrzvBqRiw). We know that a major reason why women and minorities leave engineering is discrimination and harassment, but few organizations are addressing these issues since they are not supposed to be happening in organizations. I interviewed approximately 100 female civil engineers from CEOs to staff and 100% of them had experienced discrimination and/or harassment. This is the norm, not the exception as a female in civil engineering. One of the most powerful leadership book that details my experience as an Asian female engineer is The First, the Few, and the Only. I suspect most women in engineering will also relate to the experiences. She Engineers is also great. The other phenomena that happens is that women don't help women and tokenism (diverse people are put in management but they don't want to impact change or they don't feel safe to share their experiences authentically). This is also a great TED talk https://www.ted.com/talks/rha_goddess_and_deepa_purushothaman_4_ways_to_redefine_power_at_work_to_include_women_of_color?language=en.

I'm not surprised that DEI managers are being let go because I never felt the effort was real to begin with in 2020. We have discussing women in STEM for over 30 years (I was in the first women in engineering class at Illinois in 1993) and spent billions of dollars but we haven't made significant change. In addition, when I speak out I am often gaslight (my company is the problem and if I go to another place it is better or it is better than it used to be). I was told in college that I would be provided equal opportunities, the profession needed my skillset (hard and soft skills), and we civil engineers need to represent the public that we serve. It was lies and we are telling the next generation the same thing I was told. I did not expect to be a trailblazer. I thought the problems were solved in the 1970-1980s. Until we tell the truth about our experiences, I feel that nothing will change. ASCE President Maria Lehman is passionate about this issue. It is a privilege to serve in ASCE leadership to work on these issues to modernize our profession but it is emotional draining. I believe it will take a partnership of universities, employers, and professional organizations to impact real change since each has a different role to play. 

Sincerely,
Preeti

------------------------------
Preetindar Ghuman P.E., M.ASCE
CIVIL ENGINEER
Huntington Beach CA

Original Message:
Sent: 05-18-2023 02:16 PM
From: Jennifer Sloan Ziegler
Subject: Is DE&I non-essential?

------------------------------
Jennifer Sloan Ziegler Ph.D., P.E., M.ASCE
Ridgeland MS
------------------------------