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Hurricane Ian - Opportunity to Learn

  • 1.  Hurricane Ian - Opportunity to Learn

    Posted 09-30-2022 06:06 PM

    Should ASCE convene an external review panel to assess the damage along Florida's west coast and develop recommendations on how to mitigate? The images that have been published are both overwhelming and tragic. An official assessment would allow the civil engineering community to learn from the tragedy that unfolded and give the profession a fighting chance to improve design practices as well as shed light on existing building codes and where changes are needed. Convening an external review panel would follow the model example after Hurricane Katrina. In my mind, this is what engineering leadership is all about. 



    ------------------------------
    Mitch Winkler P.E., M.ASCE
    Houston, TX
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  • 2.  RE: Hurricane Ian - Opportunity to Learn

    Posted 10-03-2022 09:54 AM
    I agree, Mitch.  Civil Engineers are primary drivers in the development of building codes and we need to evaluate the damage from Ian and see what we could have done better.  If not us, then who?

    ------------------------------
    Stacey Morris P.E., M.ASCE
    ETI Corporation
    West Memphis AR
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Hurricane Ian - Opportunity to Learn

    Posted 10-11-2022 03:20 PM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 10-11-2022 03:20 PM
    No argument with this initiative.

    I would ask that you consider involving non-engineers, professionals, to help better understand why,
    after adequate advance warning of similar natural disasters are forecasted, and warnings issued through areas
    believed to be at risk, so many people still either:
    a. "Let's wait to see if this will really happen here,"

    b. "What don't we just board over some windows and have a "Movie Fest."

    c. "After all, we've been here over 21 years, and heard similar so-called warnings, and see? 
    We're still here?"

    Given we promised to protect the safety, health, and welfare of the population,
    perhaps its time we add-on the non-engineering hazards as well.

    Cheers,
    Bill

    ------------------------------
    William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
    Buffalo, N.Y.

    "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: Hurricane Ian - Opportunity to Learn

    Posted 10-12-2022 03:50 PM
    Thanks Stacey for the reminder.

    "Civil Engineers are primary drivers in the development of building codes."

    And then after the codes and regulations for their application are "Signed, sealed, and delivered,"
    in many municipalities the codes and regulations are administered by that municipalities elected Board. 

    As one former municipalities chief engineer reflects, "The Board makes the final decisions as to the codes application
    and administration."
    Cheers,
    Bill

    ------------------------------
    William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
    Buffalo, N.Y.

    "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 5.  RE: Hurricane Ian - Opportunity to Learn

    Posted 10-07-2022 08:03 AM

    Mitch, as I was reading about the Hurricane Ian damages and aftermaths – came to learn about the fate of six dome-shaped houses built 300 ft offshore of Cape Romano in Florida in 1982. Once dubbed as a model solution to the effects of Sea Level Rise – the houses were doomed and submerged by the onslaught of Hurricane winds and Storm Surge.

    Again, hope that more will share first-hand experiences on Hurricane Ian damages, and on the Dome-shaped houses in water.

    -----

    Dr. Dilip K Barua, PhD

    Website

    Google Scholar




  • 6.  RE: Hurricane Ian - Opportunity to Learn

    Posted 10-16-2022 10:33 AM

    While we are waiting to see if the Society will activate a task force to review the damage from Hurricane Ian I want to share an insightful video I came across from the APA on lateral load paths. https://www.apawood.org/lateral-load-path-basics. The focus of the video is on residential wood frame construction and design to resist wind loads. The video highlights in very descriptive  detail the vulnerability of the common wood frame house to wind loads. It also shows the relatively simple steps that can be taken to make sure everything is well connected to ensure a robust and reliable transfer of load from the walls and roof to the foundation.  I also discovered that FEMA has a two-volume set of construction manuals. See Vol 1 and Vol 2. All in all, this tells me we know as a profession how to properly design wood frame houses to resist wind loading, within limits.



    ------------------------------
    Mitch Winkler P.E., M.ASCE
    Houston, TX
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Hurricane Ian - Opportunity to Learn

    Posted 10-19-2022 11:46 AM
    Dear Colleagues,
    Dr. W. Edwards Deming taught that when results are unacceptable, "Its the system, not the people."
    Deming meant "Within an organization."

    Within the dialogue Mitch initiated, the system includes not only engineers and building codes.
    It includes all entities that are involved in the results of causing the horrific results Mitch referred too.

    Perhaps if we start with a better definition of what contributed to the destruction of physical structures during and after the storm,
    we might find an application of the "Fishbone Diagram," also known as an Ishikawa diagram, of value.

    One thing we do know is that while building codes play a part in this story, they alone are not a complete version
    of "What went wrong."

    Cheers,
    Bill

    ------------------------------
    William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
    Buffalo, N.Y.

    "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: Hurricane Ian - Opportunity to Learn

    Posted 10-20-2022 10:13 AM
    I really like this idea. It can be done at a very low cost, e.g., Zoom, and would provide needed insight on opportunities, priorities, and possible next steps. i also fully agree that it is more than building codes.

    ------------------------------
    Mitch Winkler P.E., M.ASCE
    Houston, TX
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 9.  RE: Hurricane Ian - Opportunity to Learn

    Posted 10-20-2022 10:15 AM
    Dear Colleagues,
    Just "Stumbled" across this additional information.
    Seems like it would be part of a comprehensive plan for the subject of this thread.

    Disaster Recovery: A Local Government Responsibility[1]

    Regardless of community size or the nature of the disaster, local government leaders are responsible for overseeing all four phases of emergency management-preparedness, response, recovery, and mitigation. Federal and state governments play a supporting role in the immediate aftermath and in providing funding and guidance for long-term recovery and mitigation. This article examines how local leaders can best prepare their communities in the area of first response.

    [1] https://icma.org/documents/disaster-recovery-local-government-responsibility


    Cheers,
    Bill

    ------------------------------
    William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
    Buffalo, N.Y.

    "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 10.  RE: Hurricane Ian - Opportunity to Learn

    Posted 10-28-2022 04:12 AM

    Perhaps – another approach would be to apply the principle of ONTOLOGY – a philosophical term referring, originally to the discourses on the state of a certain existence. It's being applied to systematically synthesize and summarize the factors and causes of such existences. A group known as Ontology Based Engineering (OBE) is even launched to promote Ontological approach in engineering problem definitions, solution identifications and consequences assessments.

    In scientific applications – Ontology is defined as (NAP 26755): an explicit, formal specification of a shared conceptualization – a systematic set of shared terms and an explication of their interrelationships.

    -----

    Dr. Dilip K Barua, PhD

    Website

    Google Scholar


    Original Message


  • 11.  RE: Hurricane Ian - Opportunity to Learn

    Posted 10-24-2022 12:01 AM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 10-24-2022 12:31 PM
    Why don't just simply get rid and forget of residential wood construcción, specially roof framing?.
    Wood structures does not stand a chance against category 3+ hurricanes or tornados (within Central States).   No mater how many steel plates, sophisticated connectors and/or bolts you throw in.  

    Have you forgotten Andrew just 30 years ago (1992) , and a couple more two three years later over Florida also.  
    How can you rebuild exactly the same?.   That escapes my understanding.   Well, I have an idea, but I'm not willing to get into it in this forum, because it's not technical.

    Structural steel, concrete and cmu are the only safe bet.

    ------------------------------
    Ramses Sanchez M.ASCE
    Principal
    Descon, Srl
    rsadescon@...
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Hurricane Ian - Opportunity to Learn

    Posted 10-24-2022 11:31 AM
    Ramses - I agree with you.  I have always wondered why houses in Florida are constructed of wood rather than reinforced concrete or reinforced cmu.

    ------------------------------
    Richard McGrath A.M.ASCE
    Structural Engineer
    Airdrie AB
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 13.  RE: Hurricane Ian - Opportunity to Learn

    Posted 10-24-2022 12:32 PM
    Thanks Richard,

    For a long time I thought I was a lone wolf over this subject.   And yes, you're right, I forgot to include CMU also.   (I already edited my comment to include it).   But I must say that in Florida many houses are built with CMU, only problem is that they use them for exterior walls only.   They keep insisting on wood or light gage roof framing.  Any of which framing does not offer any guarantee against hurricanes nor tornados.

    RAMSES SANCHEZ ALMA
    Consultor Estructural, M.ASCE 
    DESCON, SRL
     Santo Domingo, Rep. Dom
    T 809.476.0820 F 809.476.0897
    http://do.linkedin.com/in/ramsessanchez





    Original Message


  • 14.  RE: Hurricane Ian - Opportunity to Learn

    Posted 10-26-2022 07:54 AM
    I think this suggestion has a lot of merit. To this point, the undamaged house profiled in this recent WJS article cites concrete block construction. The photo in the article of the purportedly undamaged structure is stunning. It will be interesting to see how the area comes back and if there is shift to more resilient materials like steel. concrete and CMU - as those that can afford to rebuild take note of the structures that withstood the storm.

    ------------------------------
    Mitch Winkler P.E., M.ASCE
    Houston, TX
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 15.  RE: Hurricane Ian - Opportunity to Learn

    Posted 10-26-2022 04:49 PM
    I "Stumbled" across the following reference which offers still more background
    relative to the system under consideration.

    Cheers,
    Bill

    The Human Impact of Floods: a Historical Review of Events 1980-2009 and Systematic Literature Review[1]

    Shannon Doocy,* Amy Daniels, Sarah Murray, and Thomas D. Kirsch*

     

    Floods are the most common natural disaster and the leading cause of natural disaster fatalities worldwide. 

    [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3644291/



    ------------------------------
    William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
    Buffalo, N.Y.

    "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 16.  RE: Hurricane Ian - Opportunity to Learn

    Posted 12-29-2022 11:13 AM
    I think there should be an external review panel. Although members below have pointed out that a lot of the ~$50,000,000,000 of damages were from choice of infrastructure material, there were impacts inside of Cuba and the United States. Most fatalities were inside Florida, so the review panel needs to see precisely why Florida was hit much harder this way, along with considering what kinds of designs to rebuild, so that all areas in the path withstand hurricanes like this in the future.

    I also fear results like that of Hurricane Ian will become more common as time passes. With the shifts in seasonal weather I have been noticing in Ohio and Illinois over the last few years, along with the political progress of pushing back against climate change, there is still much work to do across the next several decades. That is a lot of time for hurricane seasons to increase in intensity.

    ------------------------------
    Alexander Granato A.M.ASCE
    Student
    Bexley OH
    granato.3@...
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Hurricane Ian - Opportunity to Learn

    Posted 01-02-2023 05:55 PM
    Interesting and worthwhile Thread.  Setting up a task committee could be valuable, but it could have many focus areas and would take a lot of work to produce something valuable. I suspect colleagues in FL are already thinking about this and would like to hear more.

    One topic of investigation could be big picture planning and development rules.  A new development called Babcock Farms designed with energy and flood security (located inland from Ft Meyers) apparently survived Ian with little damage.  Does anyone know more about this?

    See Babcock Ranch – A Solar Town Proves Resilient During Hurricane Ian – Resilient Design Institute and Florida's Hurricane-Proof Town Is the Future of Planning for Climate Change (newsweek.com)

    Rob Montgomery
    Cottage Grove, WI
    rob@...

    ------------------------------
    Robert Montgomery P.E., D.WRE, M.ASCE
    Water Res Engnr
    Cottage Grove WI
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 18.  RE: Hurricane Ian - Opportunity to Learn

    Posted 01-08-2023 01:04 PM
    Thank you for replying, Robert. I really appreciate it.

    I haven't heard of Babcock Farms before, but it looks like this area was designed for surviving the hurricane, and not just climate change. With the community mostly unscathed after Hurricane Ian, this is the community's chance to promote more than just solar energy.

    ------------------------------
    Alexander Granato A.M.ASCE
    Student
    Bexley OH
    granato.3@...
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 19.  RE: Hurricane Ian - Opportunity to Learn

    Posted 01-02-2023 11:11 AM
    Good question and thread. I note that our responses are focused on more resistant construction in coastal areas. Should a task force also consider restrictions on building or rebuilding in these coastal areas?
    Jim Moore

    ------------------------------
    James Moore P.E., M.ASCE
    Vice President
    Mount Pocono PA
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  • 20.  RE: Hurricane Ian - Opportunity to Learn

    Posted 01-08-2023 01:04 PM
    Hello James,

    Do you mean restrictions on building or rebuilding the same types of infrastructure that collapsed during the hurricane? If so, that would be a wise addition to the criteria, given what I stated earlier about these extreme weather patterns being bound to increase in the coming decades.

    ------------------------------
    Alexander Granato A.M.ASCE
    Student
    Bexley OH
    granato.3@...
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


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