Discussion: View Thread

  • 1.  Everybody wants reliable systems but how to pay for them?

    Posted 07-25-2024 01:18 PM

    I found the quote below in the Washington Post* about last week's software outage and see it as emblematic of many other systems, including the power grid, transportation, telecommunications, etc. You can also extend this to municipal services like garbage collection, policing, etc.  Everyone wants reliable services, but how do we get people to pay for them? 

     "This is global capitalism at work, and it's a fundamental economic effect of the internet we've built," said Bruce Schneier, a security technologist and fellow at Harvard University's Berkman Klein Center for Internet and Society. "We have a very brittle system where companies are rewarded for maximum profitability. And how do you do that? With monopolization, with having no inefficiencies, with running lean - and the thing about that is that it's really great as long as it works. But when it fails, it fails badly."

    *) Largest IT outage in history expected to barely register in the economy by By Abha Bhattarai and Rachel Siegel



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    Mitch Winkler P.E.(inactive), M.ASCE
    Houston, TX
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  • 2.  RE: Everybody wants reliable systems but how to pay for them?

    Posted 07-30-2024 09:16 AM

    What a divide between the academy and the real world.  The recovery from the software outage shows just how resilient our internet we've built undeniably is.  And I should hope companies are rewarded for profitability, rather than the opposite.  If companies weren't profitable, then naturally government services would be severely curtailed owing to lack of tax income.  Nothing failed here, except socialism.  To help pay for reliable systems, how about capping the amount of debt publicly owned utilities can take on; that would require them to raise rates to more closely match the true cost of providing service.  People would divert some spending from new cars, clothing, paying others cook fancy food for them, and entertainment to things of more value:  clean water, reliable electricity, functional wastewater, well-maintained highways.



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    Dudley McFadden P.E., BC.WRE, M.ASCE
    Principal Civil Engineer
    Roseville CA
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  • 3.  RE: Everybody wants reliable systems but how to pay for them?

    Posted 08-01-2024 10:51 AM

    Dudley:

    How would your suggestion of capping borrowing power work? Would it require increased government regulation? Are you advocating more government involvement in the economy?

    If put into place, reducing utility borrowing would require them to have cash on hand to pay large capital expenditures, so utilities would have to charge customers more than the cost of services for several years before service improvements instead of several years after improvements. It's not clear to me how that would increase infrastructure investments. Please explain.

    Bill Mc



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    William McAnally Ph.D., P.E., BC.CE, BC.NE, F.ASCE
    ENGINEER
    Columbus MS
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  • 4.  RE: Everybody wants reliable systems but how to pay for them?

    Posted 08-02-2024 06:39 PM

    Well, clean water is worth paying for.  Excepting persons on public assistance, looking around cities today we see plenty of people with disposable income.  Things cost money, and people who benefit from those things have a right to the dignity and responsibility to pay for them.  I certainly hope utilities charge customers what it costs to provide them with benefits they enjoy.  Obviously some costs can be capitalized and financed over several years, but some ought not to.  People will just have to purchase fewer material goods and instead divert household funds to water, electricity, heating, and roads.



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    Dudley McFadden P.E., BC.WRE, M.ASCE
    Principal Civil Engineer
    Roseville CA
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  • 5.  RE: Everybody wants reliable systems but how to pay for them?

    Posted 08-01-2024 03:14 PM

    Our infrastructure has never been more fragile and corporate profits have never been higher, a real thinker... Costs aside, I think better enforcement of our existing anti-trust and anti-monopoly laws would contribute a lot to reducing the fragility of digital & other forms of infrastructure. 



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    Renn Henry
    Staff Engineer
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  • 6.  RE: Everybody wants reliable systems but how to pay for them?

    Posted 08-01-2024 05:27 PM

    Excellent point, Renn. Our government has been lax on enforcing those laws since the Reagan years and we've seen monopolistic practices proliferate.



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    William McAnally Ph.D., P.E., BC.CE, BC.NE, F.ASCE
    ENGINEER
    Columbus MS
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  • 7.  RE: Everybody wants reliable systems but how to pay for them?

    Posted 08-02-2024 06:38 PM

    I realize it's an election year so the incumbent party in power is no doubt proud to assert that corporate profits have never been higher than on their watch, but I don't quite see why high profits is a negative for infrastructure.  Large company employees and stockholders-such as me, through mutual funds in my 401(k)-prefer higher profits over corporate profits being low.  Profits bring a strong economy.  People earning those profits spend them.  People and companies earning those profits pay them to the government in taxes and also invest in municipal bonds to pay for infrastructure improvement.  I do understand the AT&T break-up from the 1980s, but breaking up monopoly regulated utilities such as Commonwealth Edison, American Water, or Pacific Gas and Electric would change not all that much as far as investment in my opinion.  On the other hand, it seems to me if people paid the full cost of investing in infrastructure each and every month on their utility bill, they would demand better management and investment decisions.  So if "everybody" wants reliable systems then ought not "everybody" gladly chip in?



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    Dudley McFadden P.E., BC.WRE, M.ASCE
    Principal Civil Engineer
    Roseville CA
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