When I first read the basis of this thread, I thought it was going to go a totally different way. In Texas, like most places in the US, the average age of surveyors is near 65, and the median is even higher. This is a problem on it's own. I agree that most civil engineers should not be doing surveying. I also believe that if we do not find a way to lower the average age of surveyors from 65 to a more appropriate 40 or so, we as civil engineers are in for a big hurt. Because, we can't do
civil engineering without good, reliable
surveying.
When these 65 year old surveyors start retiring, or passing away, civil engineering in Texas will have three options.
1. We will have to work without surveyors, effectively becoming surveyors without the seal. This is a violation of the board rules in Texas, and will get you rejected as both a civil engineer and surveyor.
2. We will have to lower the standards of surveyors, effectively making the title of surveyor useless. This would be a horrible answer. Our projects would suffer from quality issues, and I think we would default back to item 1 to avoid this.
3. We will have to encourage the creation of more surveyors by paying them larger quantities of money over long periods of time to encourage college kids to want to become surveyors. To the average 18-year old, working outside for 4-8 years before you can take a test to become a surveyor does not sound like a lot of fun. I can easily foresee the time when the highest paid engineering-related graduates are land surveyors-in-training, not engineers-in-training.
Currently civil engineering projects pay 2-3% of the total construction cost to surveying. I can easily see that doubling over the next 10 years. In times of feast like now in Texas, surveyors set the price, quality, and delivery time. Good, independent surveyors have become one of the critical resources for the small engineering firm, and are becoming difficult to find.
If anyone else can see this future, but has alternative suggestions for how to solve it, please respond, because I believe that this will soon be a crisis.
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Dwayne Culp, Ph.D., P.E., P.Eng, M.ASCE
Culp Engineering, LLC
Rosenberg TX
(713)898-1977
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Original Message:
Sent: 09-24-2018 15:59
From: Aaron Castelo
Subject: PE-Practicing Land Surveying
Engineers and Land Surveyors are licensed separately in the states. Each profession has it's own licensing requirements and these do vary from state. In 2005, the North Carolina Society of Surveyors successfully advocated for legislation to increase the licensing requirements for surveyors. The changes became effective for new licensees starting in 2013.
The law changed the minimum experience and education requirements to become a surveyor in North Carolina. Applicants who had passed the Fundamentals of Engineering Exam prior to 2013 were grandfathered in and allowed to practice under the pre-2013 requirements. The North Carolina Section of ASCE is aware of some concerns surrounding these changes, and is considering creating a task force to explore possible solutions. In the meantime, ASCE government relations will work with the appropriate Institutes to look into this as well.
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Aaron Castelo
Director, State and Local Government Relations
American Society of Civil Engineers
(202)789-7855
Original Message:
Sent: 09-24-2018 08:07
From: Yance Marti
Subject: PE-Practicing Land Surveying
Here in Wisconsin, it has always been the case that they are separate professions with separate licensing. I would cringe at the idea of any licensed civil engineer, most with only one college class in land surveying, stamping or performing surveys. There are many specialties within civil engineering, not all of which have as deep a knowledge of surveying as <g class="gr_ gr_222 gr-alert gr_gramm gr_inline_cards gr_run_anim Grammar multiReplace" id="222" data-gr-id="222">a RLS</g>. Surveyors, on the other hand, specialize in surveying. They can get a bachelor's degree in surveying but they should have ten full years of land surveying experience. Ten years experience is a lot of knowledge.
Sure, if an engineer has enough practical land surveying experience, then they should get dual licensure. It would water down the legitimacy of the surveying profession and perhaps the engineering profession to have any licensed engineer perform surveys. The court case you mention seems odd but without details, it is hard to imagine an engineer taken to the courts for the same problem would have fared better.
Original Message:
Sent: 09-19-2018 20:32
From: Charles Averette
Subject: PE-Practicing Land Surveying
When I received my PE, I was allowed to practice Land Surveying as it was part of engineering, particularly Civil Engineering. In the practice of Land Surveying, I signed and sealed many plats with my PE seal. In 1975, the RLS wanted to do incidental engineering within subdivisions and wanted only RLS to do land surveying. A lot of us that were PE's objected to this change. The law was changed with the stipulation that PE's who were capable to do Land Surveying were issued a RLS license.
In the past couple of years it has come to the attention that RLS, now PLS, are not a "learned" profession as they do not have the requirements of a four-year college degree to be a "learned" profession. We have had a case in North Carolina's courts where a PLS was sued by his client and the jury assessed client damages in the sum of $ 90,000. The judge then ordered triple damages ($270,000) plus court costs because the PLS was not a "learned" professional.
The average age of PLS in North Carolina is approximately 61 years. In April of 2018, we had two members to pass the exam to become certified Professional Land Surveyors. At this rate, the professional engineers who design our infrastructure will be at the mercy of the PLS because only they are allowed to do land surveying on our projects. All projects will require at least a boundary survey, which can only be performed by a PLS.
Therefore, it is critical that professional engineers be allowed to practice land surveying under their PE license as they were allowed to do prior to 1975.
How can we as Civil Engineers draw attention to this issue at a state level?
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Charles D. Averette P.E., P.L.S., M.ASCE
Averette Engineering Co., P.A.
Raeford NC
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