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Code of ethics reboot

  • 1.  Code of ethics reboot

    Posted 07-31-2019 14:58
    There was an article published last week on the ASCE News page: "Refresh on the ASCE Code of ethics."

    I'm one of the members of the task committee working on this project, and wanted to start this thread to allow a forum for general thoughts and comments on the article, as well as to raise awareness.

    I am tagging those who commented on the article so far for further comment here if desired. @Monica McCluskey @John McLaughlin ​​​​​@Martha Vangeem​​ @Arun Kumar Rao @Charles Fowler @Joshua Steelman​​​​ @Arun Kumar

    ------------------------------
    Stephanie Slocum P.E.,M.ASCE
    Founder
    Engineers Rising LLC

    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Code of ethics reboot

    Posted 07-31-2019 16:15
    I like the overall concept.  However, I am concerned about putting Society on equal footing with Peers/Employers/Profession/Clients.  I would include public safety and the environment under Society.  The pressures to compromise on public safety and the environment often stem from those other branches.  If the preamble continues to hold safety paramount and becomes more inclusive, I would support it.  Under that umbrella would be job site safety, protecting the owner from future claims, and checking the work of other engineers (looking out for each other).

    The code of ethics is usually adopted by state boards in some manner.  Will there be an opportunity for them to provide feedback?

    ------------------------------
    Chad Morrison P.E.,M.ASCE
    Professional Engineer
    Greenville RI
    (401)231-4870 EXT 2207
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Code of ethics reboot

    Posted 08-02-2019 13:24
    The "Refresh" article includes: "The task committee's approach emphasizes usability and enforceability, dispensing with the canons and instead creates a hierarchy of stakeholders within an engineer's ethical responsibilities." I take this to mean different stakeholders are not on the same footing with one another. Society ranks above Environment ranks above Profession ranks above Clients/Employers ranks above Peers. Am I misunderstanding the hierarchy?

    W. M. Kim Roddis, Ph.D., P.E.(KS), F. ASCE, Professor, Vienna, VA





  • 4.  RE: Code of ethics reboot

    Posted 08-03-2019 09:46

    I think Kim Roddis raises a good point.  There should not be numbers, but rather these different buckets should be regarded as pillars in holding up ethical behavior, and if one is weak then it threatens the overall.

    And yes, "environment" is different from "society" and should be maintained separately.



    ------------------------------
    Charles Haas F.ASCE
    LD Betz Professor of Environ. Eng. & Department Head - Civil, Architectural and Environmental Eng.
    Drexel University
    Philadelphia PA
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Code of ethics reboot

    Posted 08-01-2019 10:43
    I'm curious how this change will impact students preparing for the FE exam.  Will NCEES adapt the FE for the ethics questions in for a CE exam?  Probably not, since I suppose all disciplines use the same questions pool, which I believe are all based on NSPE Canons.   When teaching students, the parallel structure of the Codes allows educators to teach ASCE code and still preparing students for the NSPE-based FE.

    ------------------------------
    Timothy Murphy P.E.,M.ASCE
    Professor
    Trine University
    Angola IN
    (260) 665-4216
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Code of ethics reboot

    Posted 08-01-2019 10:58
    Timothy,
    Great question and it is fantastic that you are thinking in terms of your students' success on the FE.  I am a member of this ASCE Task Committee and I also serve on the NCEES Civil Engineering FE Exam Development Committee.  The ethics and professional responsibility questions for the FE exam are drawn from a common pool of questions that are shared over multiple disciplines.  In addition, those questions are based on the NCEES Model Law (which is a good read and is part of the exam ref. document).  So to address your question, ASCE's current process will not impact students as they prepare for the ethics and professional responsibility questions on the FE exam.

    ------------------------------
    Brock Barry Ph.D.,P.E.,F.ASCE
    Professor of Engineering Education
    West Point NY
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Code of ethics reboot

    Posted 08-01-2019 11:21
    Thanks Brock for the quick feedback.

    ------------------------------
    Timothy Murphy P.E.,M.ASCE
    Professor
    Trine University
    Angola IN
    (260) 665-4216
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Code of ethics reboot

    Posted 08-02-2019 13:28
    I have concerns about how the new code will be implemented internationally. The existing ASCE code, as well as that of the NSPE, was developed in an open society https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_society.  How can the spirit of the code be successfully implemented in a closed society? Would a student chapter be able to compete on an equal footing when it is from a country with no ABET accredited programs open to some students because of gender? Religion? Race? Ethnicity? How would a professional manage to issue public statements only in an objective and truthful manner when there is no freedom of speech in the country?

    This is not a new problem, but one ASCE has been dealing with for decades. (International expansion, ethics, and prohibited foreign trade practices 
    https://ascelibrary.org/doi/abs/10.1061/(ASCE)9742-597X(1994)10:5(34), The ASCE committee of global principles for professional conduct https://ascelibrary.org/doi/full/10.1061/%28ASCE%291532-6748%282009%299%3A3%28144%29, to mention just a couple of background documents).

    I think it is necessary to address this on-going problem explicitly in the development of the new code.

    W. M. Kim Roddis, Ph.D., P.E.(KS), F. ASCE, Professor, Vienna, VA




  • 9.  RE: Code of ethics reboot

    Posted 08-02-2019 15:35
    There is a hierarchy as follows. This is what the graphic in the article was trying to portray with the numbers.

    The preamble is over everything. Then, we have 1. Society; 2. Environment; 3. Profession; 4. Employer/Client; 5. Peers

    @Chad Morrison and @Kim Roddis, let us know if this does not answer the question.​​​


    ------------------------------
    Stephanie Slocum P.E.,M.ASCE
    Founder
    Engineers Rising LLC

    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Code of ethics reboot

    Posted 08-02-2019 16:07

    Are you saying the numbers also indicate hierarchical position? That is to say, is Environment higher in the hierarchy than Peers?

    I don't think the graphic from Refresh conveys a clear hierachy.

    "A hierarchy (from the Greek hierarkhia, "rule of a high priest", from hierarkhes, "president of sacred rites") is an arrangement of items (objects, names, values, categories, etc.) in which the items are represented as being "above", "below", or "at the same level as" one another. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchy

    Instead of using a sort of Venn diagram in-plan representation with the Preamble 'on top of' the 5 Stakeholders, a clearer graphic would have the Preamble at the top of the figure with the 5 Stakeholders in order down the page, perhaps inset at each step to show that a Stakeholder with a higher number dominates a Stakeholder with a lower number.

    Before the committee finalizes its graphic, it would be a good idea to test it with ASCE members who haven't see it before to see what they think it means. This seems worthwhile since with three people (you, me, and Chad) we have three different interpretations from seeing the current graphic.




    ------------------------------
    W. M. Kim Roddis P.E.,F.ASCE
    The George Washington University
    Washington DC
    (202) 994-4901
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Code of ethics reboot

    Posted 08-11-2019 21:11

    I thank Bill Hayden and Mark Gilligan for getting back to my previous post about the implicit assumption of the code (existing and future) operating within an open society and the difficulties posed to applying it within a closed society. From my previous post:

    "I have concerns about how the new code will be implemented internationally. The existing ASCE code, as well as that of the NSPE, was developed in an open society https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_society.  How can the spirit of the code be successfully implemented in a closed society? … I think it is necessary to address this on-going problem explicitly in the development of the new code."

    Bill, your response to my post focused on the gender issue within an open society. Yes, I used gender as one of my examples in my previous post, but my point was application within a closed society. The WSJ article is explicitly about the U.S., an open society. What I was and am trying to say is the development of the new code should be a well-informed process. Being informed includes being explicitly aware of the context difference of the code of ethics within open and closed societies.

    Mark, you pointed out that "Introducing social justice issues into the code of ethics has the potential of creating unintended consequences."  I agree. I am talking about an informed process, not a product containing social justice issues.

    The on-going problem I am trying to talk about is that currently there are many places in the world where the current ASCE code cannot be followed without breaking laws and social norms. Those developing the new code should be aware of this problem and think about how it will be dealt with by ASCE members in other countries.

    ASCE is an international organization, not an American organization. The present and future ASCE Code of Ethics needs to be functional in many societal contexts.



    ------------------------------
    W. M. Kim Roddis P.E., F.ASCE
    The George Washington University
    Washington DC
    (202) 994-4901
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Code of ethics reboot

    Posted 08-15-2019 10:23
    Hello, I worked in some parts of the world, the Code was follow-able. Also it is quite similar to rules in the world as one of the articles in our Engineering Journal pointed out.

    To my experience the largest risk factors are persons "not bound by professional conduct" in the same office. What would help the single engineer is to promote and enforce the Engineering Ethic Code on a Cooperate Level. Holding Companies accountable will make Compliance Departments our supporters and amplifiers.

    ------------------------------
    Tino Bretschneider Ph.D., P.E., S.E., M.ASCE
    Senior Engineer
    Elmwood Park IL
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Code of ethics reboot

    Posted 08-02-2019 16:09
    Where can I download the proposals?

    I believe that the code of ethics does not reflect the beliefs and interests of members of ASCE.  To start we should ask how the current code of ethics is used by the membership.  I will suggest that most do not pay it any attention.

    We need to understand and spell out the problems with the current code of ethics and how it is used.  Of particular concern is my perception that many attempt to use it to establish legal duties that could result in increased civil liability for engineers.  This effort should be informed by the impact it may have on the viability of engineering firms.

    The first cannon says that "Engineers shall hold paramount the safety, health and welfare of the public and shall strive to comply with the principles of sustainable development in the performance of their professional duties."  This is often used to imply that the interests of the public, which are not well defined, always trump the interests of our clients.  I suggest that this is inconsistent with our legal obligations to our clients.  It also ignores the reality that a professional must always balance competing interests such as clients desires, our duty to the public and our desire to make a profit.

    Yes we have duties to the public but they are more limited and nuanced.  We should be sophisticated enough that we can recognize that we do not live in a black and white world.

    ------------------------------
    Mark Gilligan P.E.,M.ASCE
    Berkeley CA
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Code of ethics reboot

    Posted 08-03-2019 17:09
    I'm not sure I like the hierarchical approach. Maybe if I saw the written Preamble it might clear things up for me. Adding sustainability to the Environmental Canon concerns me.  How is sustainability defined?  I believe that if you asked 5 members to define sustainability you might get 5 different definitions.  On a single project, diligent and ethical engineers might reasonably disagree on what is sustainable. The code should not allow ambiguities.

    ------------------------------
    Bevin Beaudet P.E.,M.ASCE
    President/Owner
    Bevin A. Beaudet, P.E., LLC.
    West Palm Beach FL
    (561)373-4442
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Code of ethics reboot

    Posted 08-05-2019 10:45
    Mark
    Thank you for providing your perspective on the current ASCE Code of Ethics.  It is interesting to note that many of the suggestions you made regarding a process for evaluating the current Code and the current state of practice were very similar to the process used by the Task Committee.

    There will be many opportunities for future review and input at all levels of ASCE (to include individual members) as this moves forward.  I encourage you to stay engaged.

    ------------------------------
    Brock Barry Ph.D.,P.E.,F.ASCE
    Professor of Engineering Education
    West Point NY
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Code of ethics reboot

    Posted 08-03-2019 17:08

    I like this society-oriented hierarchy. Contrary to what some people seem to think (and even the way many who say otherwise might end up behaving in practice), your ethical duties to your clients and employees are largely contractual and, therefore, limited. Your ethical responsibility to The World is ever-present. It is present when you were born, and it only grows as you mature.



    ------------------------------
    John Ragan EIT,A.M.ASCE
    PITTSBURGH PA
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Code of ethics reboot

    Posted 08-04-2019 19:33
    I would like to see respect of diversity and inclusion explicitly stated in the peers section. A good article is here https://news.asce.org/respecting-diversity-and-inclusion-its-the-ethical-thing-to-do/,

    There was also a good article on this in the July/Aug. issue of Civil Engineering, which argues that discouraging women from STEM careers violates the current code of ethics. I would like to see it made explicit, though.

    Melanie Sattler, Ph.D., P.E.
    Professor
    Civil Engineering
    University of Texas at Arlington

    ------------------------------
    Melanie Sattler Ph.D.,P.E.,M.ASCE
    Associate Professor
    University of Texas at Arlington
    Arlington TX
    (817)794-0925
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Code of ethics reboot

    Posted 08-04-2019 22:49

    Thanks, Stephanie, for initiating this thread.

    Like others, I teach 'ethics' to our civil engineering students - and have for over 20 years.  From that perspective, certainly it is advantageous that ASCE's Code of Ethics shares the format (and much of the same language) as NSPE, ASME, and others - particularly when prepping students for the FE, and when using ASCE's "A Question of Ethics" cases for analysis and application.  I fully realize, however, that practitioners may respond better to a format other than "Canons".

    I agree with a couple of comments made in response to the article itself -- is a new organization/format demonstrably an "improvement"?  Is this simply change-for-change's-sake?  In addition, there should be an opportunity provided to the general membership for reaction/comment to the proposed changes.

    On a more pedantic note, I was curious about the graphic included in the article - the middle circle says "Preamble: Overarching behavior ethical principals".  Two things: (1) I hope this was not supposed to be a sentence (I am guessing there are two items in the Preamble - overarching behavior - and - ethical principles); and (2) should it not be "principles" rather than "principals" (as it is spelled in the graphic)?  Hmmm...

    Again, thanks for the topic!!!



    ------------------------------
    Kevin Hall Ph.D.,P.E.,M.ASCE
    Professor
    Univ Of Arkansas
    Fayetteville AR
    (479) 575-8695
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Code of ethics reboot

    Posted 08-05-2019 10:58
    Kevin
    Thanks for your comments.  I wish to assure you that this is not change for the sake of change.  The ASCE Board established this Task Committee.  The charge presented to the Task Committee was to in essence write a code of ethics for ASCE from scratch.   Further, the Task Committee was strongly encouraged to not reference the existing Code (write a new Code as if there were not already an existing Code).  That is an incredible exercise to participate in.

    The ball is just getting rolling with this activity.  There will be significant engagement with ASCE members at all levels of the organization.  In fact, an initial outreach to all ASCE Committees, Institutes, and Regions is just about to launch.  Subsequent outreach activities will directly engage individual members.  There will be space for all voices in this process.

    ------------------------------
    Brock Barry Ph.D.,P.E.,F.ASCE
    Professor of Engineering Education
    West Point NY
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Code of ethics reboot

    Posted 08-07-2019 17:00

    Wednesday, August 7, 2019

    Hi Melanie, thanks for noting diversity, inclusion, and the current reality that while under the current ASCE Code of Ethics discouraging women from STEM Careers is a violation, it needs to be more explicit.

    I really like what Bevin asserts, "The code should not allow ambiguities."

    And then Charles adds "There should not be numbers, but rather these different buckets should be regarded as pillars in holding up ethical behavior, and if one is weak then it threatens the overall.

     

    • OBSERVATION

    What will make ASCE's next Code of Ethics credible to the public-at-large, private and public sector clients, and those young women and men who decide to enter the profession will be its ability to pass the 'snicker' test.

     

    'Snicker', the natural instinct one has to spontaneous hold a suppressed laugh.

     

    o   Real-World Challenges Today:

    1. Our professional women in university being sexually harassed by faculty and others.
    2. Women engineers in the workplace being overlooked and/or underpaid for career development.
    3. Women engineering professionals leaving the civil engineering field.
    4. Women engineers forming their own groups, sans men.
    5. Executive men engineers doing what they can to keep the lid tight on the above.

     

     

    • SUGGESTION

    Bring in your men and women engineers between the ages of 27 to 39 to be part of this Code of Ethics exercise, and let some of the more mature engineers serve as "Review Boards."

    Cheers,

    Bill

     



    ------------------------------
    William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
    Buffalo, N.Y.

    "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Code of ethics reboot

    Posted 08-10-2019 23:08

    I wish to build a bit on Kim's earlier closing point "I think it is necessary to address this on-going problem explicitly in the development of the new code."

    And I will be uncharacteristically brief!

    Each of us, as well of others not yet in this online chat-dialogue have personal, sincere, professional, and other reasons for their assertive positions. Today's Wall Street Journal, 10-11AUG2019,[1] offers still another, "Economics 101."

    As the article states "The growing clout of women as drivers of the U.S. economy will radically alter the business and investing landscape in years to come."

    ". . .Ignoring the changes is the equivalent of sticking one's head in shifting sand."

                                                              --Justin LaHart and Lauren Silva Laughlin

    [1] https://www.wsj.com/articles/when-women-bring-home-a-bigger-slice-of-the-bacon-11565343002 



    ------------------------------
    William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
    Buffalo, N.Y.

    "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Code of ethics reboot

    Posted 08-11-2019 09:52
    Introducing social justice issues into the code of ethics has the potential of creating unintended consequences.  In my experience these general statements are often distorted by some individuals.

    For example what is the engineers obligation when he feels that the building should be designed for performance better than the code requires for seismic or wind effects but this would result in added costs and the client is clear that he does not want this higher level of performance.  This could get real messy real fast.


    ------------------------------
    Mark Gilligan SE., M.ASCE
    Berkeley CA
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Code of ethics reboot

    Posted 08-11-2019 12:37
    Hi Mark, thanks for your comment.
    For myself, I would appreciate a clarification, if that's ok with you.

    My prior two posts addressed the 'screaming need' for clarity to name and include women.
    The 2nd post,  from the WSJ, was based solely on the changing times with the very positive impact women
    are making in the economy of business....which we expect will increase, if not accelerate.

    Q. Was your "Social Justice" reflection about that?

    Thanks for your time in considering my question.
    Cheers,
    Bill

    ------------------------------
    William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
    Buffalo, N.Y.

    "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Code of ethics reboot

    Posted 08-12-2019 12:30
      |   view attached

    RESEARCH:

    Balanced Code of Ethics – "Open" Versus "Closed" Society

    Dear Colleagues,

    It finally occurred to me that we probably are not the first professional society to have to address the challenges Kim keeps reminding us of.

    Therefore, I assembled some limited examples to highlight what other professions have done.

    N.B. What is shared herein is *NOT* offered for any 'cut & paste' but rather to suggest we need to develop a specialized cross-functional, multi-disciplined[1] task force Program, with a Projects Plan[2] and its' usual 'trimmings' to get off the "Well, here's what I think" wagon, and do the professional work we've been educated, trained, and conditioned to do. . . .Including arms-length Phase-Gate Reviews.

    Moreover, as usual, of course I may be wrong!

    Cheers,

    Bill

    Attachment  XYZ"

        Some References Without Either Recommendation Nor Prejudice Follow:

    [1] Means non-engineers, sociocultural psychologists, beaucoup women <40 years young, and > 27,

    multicultural, yada, yada, yada.

    [2] WBS, Risk Management Plan, etc., etc., etc.



    ------------------------------
    William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
    Buffalo, N.Y.

    "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
    ------------------------------

    Attachment(s)

    docx
    Attachment XYZ.docx   23K 1 version


  • 25.  RE: Code of ethics reboot

    Posted 08-13-2019 15:36
      |   view attached

    2nd Release: Balanced Code of Ethics – "Open" Versus "Closed" Society

     

    To help those with limited time, I decided to provide sources with 'hotlinks.'

    To be clear the documents in this second release are not duplicates of the initial release. 

     

    8/12/19 11:12 PM         W. M. Hayden Jr.



    ------------------------------
    William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
    Buffalo, N.Y.

    "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
    ------------------------------

    Attachment(s)



  • 26.  RE: Code of ethics reboot

    Posted 08-14-2019 14:54
      |   view attached
    Right this very moment, I am wondering "Who has the road map for all of this?"

    Suggested citation: National Academy of Engineering. 2017. Overcoming Challenges to Infusing Ethics into the Development of Engineers: Proceedings of a Workshop. Washington, DC: The National Academies Press. doi: https://doi.org/10.17226/24821.

    The attachment has a few points from the above referenced workshop.

    When I reflect on the dialogue so far within this chat-space, and then review what faculty and others have been pushing in the "Infusing Ethics" part of the educational programs of our universities, I am flabbergasted ....is that even a word?
    Cheers,
    Bill

    ------------------------------
    William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
    Buffalo, N.Y.

    "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
    ------------------------------

    Attachment(s)



  • 27.  RE: Code of ethics reboot

    Posted 08-14-2019 15:08
    Hello Bill,
    Thanks for your post.  I am not clear regarding your question of "who has the road map for all of this?"  Are you specifically asking who is involved with this process?
    Regards,

    ------------------------------
    Brock Barry Ph.D., P.E., F.ASCE
    Professor of Engineering Education
    West Point NY
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: Code of ethics reboot

    Posted 10-06-2019 08:37
    Hi Brock,
    I certainly trust you were not 'holding your breath' waiting for my reply!

    Q. "Are you specifically asking who is involved with this process?"

    'Yes,' given the significance of this eventual 'guiding light,' do we have a named task force, time-specific plan,
    strategies beyond this online chat, to solicit input?

    Cheers,
    Bill

    ------------------------------
    William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
    Buffalo, N.Y.

    "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: Code of ethics reboot

    Posted 10-15-2019 13:26
    Bill
    Thank you for clarifying your original question.  ASCE President Robin Kemper appointed a Task Committee back in July 2018.  Members of that Task Committee are:

    Brock E. Barry, Ph.D., P.E., F.ASCE; Chair

    Taylor Boileau, S.M.ASCE

    Lawrence Chiarelli, Esq., P.E., F.ASCE

    Monte Philips, Ph.D., P.E., Dist.M.ASCE

    Anna Pridmore, Ph.D., P.E., M.ASCE

    Stephanie Slocum, P.E., LEED BD+C, M.ASCE

    Peter Terry, P.E., F.ASCE

    Tara Hoke, ASCE General Counsel; Staff Contact

    Use of this Collaboration thread was just an initial step in the process.  We are currently conducting weekly meetings with representatives of interested ASCE committees.  Those meeting will continue into mid-November.  By early December we anticipate opening up that process for comment by all members of ASCE.

    Have faith that ASCE is in fact implementing a well-designed processes for obtain feedback, incorporate edits, and building member consensus.
    Regards
    Brock



    ------------------------------
    Brock Barry Ph.D., P.E., F.ASCE
    Professor of Engineering Education
    West Point NY
    ------------------------------



  • 30.  RE: Code of ethics reboot

    Posted 08-14-2019 16:40
    Much of the talk about ethics seems to be by professors teaching ethics.  The intention is to apply these ethical admonitions to practicing engineers who had no input into heir development.

    I will suggest that by the time students reach college they have already adopted an ethical framework and that much of which passes for ethical training has to do with communicating a specific set of rules proposed by others.  These rules can be memorized but the question is does this memorization change their behavior.

    It has been more eloquently said that you cannot convince somebody of something that is in conflict with their self interest.

    I have also seen some individuals to apply the ethical cannons absolutely to support a particular agenda.  This game playing is a turnoff.

    Let us be less judgmental and focus on why certain behavior is more beneficial in the long term.  As I see it the fundamental rule is do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

    ------------------------------
    Mark Gilligan SE
    Berkeley CA
    ------------------------------



  • 31.  RE: Code of ethics reboot

    Posted 10-16-2019 10:01
    Hello, yes I agree.
    But from my perspective a ethic code should have an allowance for some more idealistic formulations.

    I still miss in the whole discussion the lessons learned regarding organizational / people interaction in failure causes.
    Here comes into play what you mention with peoples best interest. It seems the "interest" is sometimes only "survival" in a group or company and imposes a burden to the single engineer. The question must be, why is the interest of the group or organization not in line with those of the Engineer? What is wrong in the social framework?

    There are many Ethic and Compliance departments on organizational level. There is also Company Registration as design firms in may states. Why does the Society not take advantage of those things and impose Ethical standards also onto the group level?

    ------------------------------
    Tino Bretschneider Ph.D., P.E., S.E., M.ASCE
    Senior Engineer
    Elmwood Park IL
    ------------------------------



  • 32.  RE: Code of ethics reboot

    Posted 08-16-2019 14:43
    Regarding "Stakeholder 4," The statement should expressly state that the engineer has a fiduciary duty to clients/employers. Until we commit to the best interests of those we serve, we will not be held in the same esteem as other professions.

    ------------------------------
    Sam Furuta P.E., M.ASCE
    Retired
    Sam L Furuta
    Cerritos CA
    ------------------------------



  • 33.  RE: Code of ethics reboot

    Posted 08-16-2019 15:07
    I believe that an engineers primary duty is to his or her client but suggest that it  does not always result in a fiduciary duty.  A fiduciary duty would expose the engineer to greater liability.  The reality is that some times the relationship between the engineer and his client is closer to an arms length relationship.

    ------------------------------
    Mark Gilligan S.E.
    Berkeley CA
    ------------------------------



  • 34.  RE: Code of ethics reboot

    Posted 08-16-2019 16:05
    Of course fiduciary duty increases exposure to potential liability. It also increases client/employer trust and, hopefully, competence in practice. Actual liability is only a problem if something is not done right and/or efficiently. Professional liability insurance and/or is always available if risk is the concern.
    Sam Furuta