William
Thank you for your message and continued interest in the ASCE Code of Ethics re-write process. I understand you are requesting additional information about the process being used. I'll attempt to provide additional details here.
- July 2019, the Task Committee (TC) presented DRAFT Version 1.0 to the ASCE Board of Direction for discussion. (Over 12 months of activity preceded this presentation to the Board. I'm not including details regarding those 12 months of activity as I believe it was previously discussed.)
- July 2019, the ASCE Board directed the TC to proceed with engaging with and requesting feedback on DRAFT Version 1.0 from representatives of all existing ASCE standing committees, regions, subsidiary committees, etc.
- August 2019, Leaders of all ASCE standing committees, regions, subsidiary committees, etc. were contacted via email. Follow-up emails and direct phone calls were made to leaders. In addition, ASCE staff liaisons for all ASCE standing committees, regions, subsidiary committees, etc. were also prompted. In those messages, representatives of each organization were invited to join in on a series of phone conferences as the TC began the process of preparing DRAFT Version 2.0. The leaders of each organization identified members to participate in the process.
- October - November 2019, the TC hosted six, 2-hour long conference calls with representatives (as identified above). During those conference calls, specific sections of DRAFT Version 1.0 were reviewed and discussed. All comments and suggestions were recorded. In addition to using a phone-based system, a web-based interface was used to promote collaboration.
- October- November 2019, in addition to the conference calls, comments and suggestions were received from representatives via an ASCE collaborate site and via direct email submission to TC members. Again, all comments and suggestions were recorded.
- November - December 2019, TC members convened for eight, 2-hour long conference calls to review each and every comment and suggestion received during the prior series of meetings. In total, over 120 individual comments were reviewed, considered, and incorporated when appropriate. A record of how each item was addressed was maintained.
- December 2019, the TC completed DRAFT Version 2.0.
- December 2019 (last week), ASCE posted DRAFT Version 2.0 to a public website to solicit feedback from all 150,000+ world-wide members of ASCE. The link to access that website is active and ASCE is in the process of publicizing the website. There should be an ASCE Collaborate thread posted in the near-term with the link (as well as other ASCE resources used to publicize the website).
The website will remain open until late January. At which point the TC will reconvene for a series of meetings to organize, review, consider, and incorporate (when appropriate) all feedback received on DRAFT Version 2.0.
I hope this provides sufficient information regarding the process.
Regards
Brock E. Barry
Chair, ASCE Task Committee on the Code of Ethics
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Brock Barry Ph.D., P.E., F.ASCE
Professor of Engineering Education
West Point NY
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Original Message:
Sent: 12-29-2019 06:56
From: William Hayden
Subject: Code of ethics reboot
As the "Code of Ethics" re-write goes forward, I trust those entrusted in framing the doc recognize. . ."Out loud" . . .the global environs we are to participate within.
The WFEO document "Declaration Global Engineering Education Standards and Capacity Building for Sustainable Development " is [1]such an "Environ."
The one-page doc referenced above is just one part of the background referenced.
Q. Given there is an "Assigned Group" to draft and submit the CoE rewrite:
- Can someone submit the process to be utilized to run the drafts through?
- What, who, when, and how will the process in 'a.' above be documented and communicated?
And of course,
The very best of the New Year 2020 to one and all!
Bill
[1] https://www.wfeo.org/wp-content/uploads/declarations/UNESCO_IEA_WFEO_Declaration_Global_Engg_Education.pdf
Downloaded 29DEC2019
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William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
Buffalo, N.Y.
"It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
Original Message:
Sent: 12-15-2019 18:36
From: William Hayden
Subject: Code of ethics reboot
I M A G I N E!
It's in our future.
Our revised Code of Ethics was released and promoted some 5 to 7 years ago.
Now, we patiently look back, reflect, and assess the results of this revision on the behaviors of those subject to the Code.
"Past behaviour may be a fairly good predictor of future behaviour [1] in some cases, but before jumping to conclusions about just how predictive, you should take into account similarity of situations, the time period, how much the person may have changed, and how habitual the behaviour might be."
What would we expect to observe, and learn about Civil Engineer's behaviors over that initial 5 to 7-year period?
Q1. What behaviors and attitudes remain the same from the period prior to these revisions?
Q2. What observable change might we expect to learn about, as well as experience?
Q3. What contentious behaviors and attitudes remain?
Cheers,
Bill
[1] Source: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/best-predictor-future-behaviour-past-except-joshua-wood/ downloaded 15DEC2019
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William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
Buffalo, N.Y.
"It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
Original Message:
Sent: 11-29-2019 11:59
From: William Hayden
Subject: Code of ethics reboot
- Question To Rewrite Committee:
Ought the subject/central issue of the "FORUM" article below be the core issue of your work?
Thank you for reading and considering my opinion.
Bill
<>=========================================<>
F O R U M
"CHAMPION NEEDED[1] An Associated Press report from Thursday, August 16, related the discovery of two more sets of human remains amid the wreckage of the interstate bridge that collapsed in Minneapolis. That raised the known death toll to 11. The report went on to say that navy divers were continuing their efforts. . .."
". . . . We have a very real "defining moment" here, an unfortunate accident, the analysis of which will teach us still more about such matters. It occurs to me that ethical principles were always intended to protect those least able to protect themselves. Of course, I may be wrong."
-William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., F.ASCE This letter was originally published by ASCE in Civil Engineering, 77(10), 8.
[1] Leadership Manage. Eng., 2008, 8(2): 47-48
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William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
Buffalo, N.Y.
"It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
Original Message:
Sent: 10-18-2019 14:51
From: Dwayne Culp
Subject: Code of ethics reboot
You make many good points Andrew. I hope the committee is still monitoring this conversation so that they consider your points.
My post was to provide what I learned at the convention to a broader audience to further the conversation. I think that your post brings up things that they may not be considering, so it furthers the conversation. I agree strongly that no code of ethics should ever be capable of being politicized.
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Dwayne Culp, Ph.D., Ph.D., P.E., M.ASCE
Culp Engineering, LLC
Rosenberg TX
Original Message:
Sent: 10-18-2019 14:08
From: Andrew Wells
Subject: Code of ethics reboot
Dwayne,
You make a couple points here that actually concern me a great deal. You are correct to point out that it is difficult to internalize any code of ethics and it is important that we can teach others to conduct themselves in an ethical manner. However, the code is not (or should not be) intended to be a teaching tool or a method for internalizing ethics. Instead it is a statement of ethics. This may seem like a slight of hand, however the former is largely academic, focusing on abstract concepts, while the later is applicable to complex real-world situations. To that end, a framework for decision making as you put it cannot be all things to all people in all circumstances.
From reading this thread and the linked article, it appears that the goal is to produce a code that is more easily understood and enforceable. My primary concern with the hierarchical approach is that it has the potential to create internal conflicts (between the "stakeholders") that are not easily resolved and therefore cannot accomplish these stated goals.
Using the environment vs. the duty to our clients as an example, I think it should be clear to all engineers that sustainability is a high priority in our practice. However, almost all of the work performed by our profession has detrimental impacts on the environment. As a result, we find ourselves on a subjective scale as to what is sustainable enough with the only hard and fast rules being "accepted practice" (which really means the law). This is a situation we find ourselves in with many of the current canons and without clear, precise, and broadly applicable metrics the hierarchy only has the appearance of being different in application.
However, by putting numbers next to these abstract concepts the society is inviting individuals to leverage the higher order ethics for political purposes in ways that distort the original intent. This is not good for ASCE or the profession.
I know that many feel the canons give too much freedom for interpretation, however that freedom is what allows us to act as informed adults. While the hierarchy may be a useful teaching tool, ASCE has other types of documents for outlining insightful decision making processes and I think this effort should go that route.
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Andrew Wells A.M.ASCE
Engineering Assistant III
Juneau AK
Original Message:
Sent: 10-17-2019 18:14
From: Dwayne Culp
Subject: Code of ethics reboot
I was at the ASCE conference in Miami this week, and had a chance to see some of the comments from the committee. I think that they have a pretty good process in place to make the code of ethics less about following a set of rules, and more about setting a criteria for how to make an ethical decision in the framework of conflicting interests. I think that they are on the correct track.
It is hard (perhaps impossible) to internalize a set of rules that are more complicated than the 10 commandments. The current ASCE ethical rule consist of over 50 interpretive statements, so it has been made difficult to internalize.
I think that their hierarchical approach, which will state what should get top billing, will be easier to internalize and teach. I have concern with expanding the hierarchy too far will make it difficult again, but I think that it is possible to not expand the hierarchy, but give examples and still get to the end result of ethics that can be made part of our limbic brain system. As an example, it is possible to hyper expand rules as simple as "Thou shalt not kill." to "Thou shall not kill" people, animals, trees, ambition, ideas, friendships, .... etc. I am hoping that that is not done with the rewrite.
I dislike current rule 8, because of expansion. Rule 8 which should basically be "Treat everyone with respect." If we treat everyone with respect, we do not need to make a list of those that we are supposed "to equally" or "regardless of" treat with respect.
I haven't heard back from them, but I volunteered to be on the committee. Maybe I can be a non-committee leader member of the committee. I think Kim's list of those not already represented on the committee could also be non-committee leader members of the committee.
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Dwayne Culp, Ph.D., Ph.D., P.E., M.ASCE
Culp Engineering, LLC
Rosenberg TX
Original Message:
Sent: 10-16-2019 12:58
From: William Hayden
Subject: Code of ethics reboot
"Have faith that ASCE is in fact implementing a well-designed process for obtaining feedback, incorporating edits, and building member consensus.
Regards
Brock."
While not mentioned specifically, I wanted to suggest that the group who will be the "Final Editors" of this revised edition reach out beyond the boundaries
of civil engineering and in fact, engineering itself.
Not for a moment am I suggesting I am expert in what Alvin Toffler could do, but I appreciated it.
Brock, if for a moment we glance back at the makeup of the population the current 'CoE' served/serves, consider some of the narrow, short-term feedback to date:
some of the creeping protectionism, the desire to integrate with our global engineering organizations, the "Profit-First" mentality, and then stop to consider those in the 22 to 25 year age range who will be running this 'pony' out for the next 40 years . . . well, these raise some questions:
How many on the ASCE Re-Write of the Code of Ethics Committee will be:
- Non-White.
- Women.
- Age 28 to 38
- Hispanic/Latino
Well, I am certain I have left out a few categories others will add, but I trust all I have done is confirm what your committee had already decided or
formed itself to do.
Thank you for reading and considering my thoughts.
Cheers,
Bill Hayden Jr.
------------------------------
William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
Buffalo, N.Y.
"It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
Original Message:
Sent: 09-14-2019 03:39
From: William Hayden
Subject: Code of ethics reboot
Well, admittedly a bit surprised at the extended period of 'quiet-tude.' . . . is that even a word(?)
Thought you might appreciate the opportunity to read, then consider the comparison between a School of Management's
perspective of an approach to ethics, compared to a dated perspective from a civil engineer a few years ago who was
'triggered' by a visiting preacher while at a Southern Baptist Church in Missouri City, Texas.
Cheers,
Bill
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William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
Buffalo, N.Y.
"It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2019 11:25
From: William Hayden
Subject: Code of ethics reboot
Re: Code of Ethics: How to Transform Failure into Success: Forensic Management
To: Brock Barry, Dwayne, Stephanie, Melanie Sattler, Chad, Charles Haas, Andrew Wells , Bevin, Stuart Walesh, Timothy Murphy, et al
Great opportunity right now to engage the minds of the women and men who will be leading the civil engineering profession for the next 40+ years.
Of course, I speak of the students in our ASCE Student Clubs.
This valuable phase for planning the new Code of Ethics . . .First seek understanding of the results of the current Code of Ethics. . . will require increased hands-on skills in collaboration, cooperation, and communication across a wide spectrum of diverse experiences and interests. [1]
Respectfully, I propose that you use the ASCE Student Sections/Chapters by geographic regions and . . . wait a minute. You are expert at this.
Therefore, unbelievably, I will stop here and ask that a small task force of 3 to 5 agree to work with an ASCE staff point-person to . . . .
No one of us is as smart as all of us.
It's amazing what can be accomplished when no one cares who gets the credit.
Cheers,
Bill
[1][1] https://collaborate.asce.org/professionaltopics/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?GroupId=9265&MessageKey=cbe274a2-c0db-4e96-b406-67479b603232&CommunityKey=c95c7fc3-ed66-4208-8841-14604b5a3c32&tab=digestviewer&ReturnUrl=%2fprofessionaltopics%2fbrowse%2fallrecentposts
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William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
Buffalo, N.Y.
"It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
Original Message:
Sent: 08-20-2019 15:17
From: Michael Hall
Subject: Code of ethics reboot
I believe the Stakeholder Model, which concept was proposed in the linked article, is excellent - it clearly depicts the critical topics in our profession's Code of Ethics. One thing to keep in mind is that any code of ethics has as its main purpose to speak to conduct and character, which, bottom line, means individuals need to behave. Interesting discussion overall here.
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Michael W. Hall, PE, M.ASCE
Sr. Engineer
Dolese Bros. Co.
Oklahoma City, OK
Original Message:
Sent: 07-31-2019 14:56
From: Stephanie Slocum
Subject: Code of ethics reboot
There was an article published last week on the ASCE News page: "Refresh on the ASCE Code of ethics."
I'm one of the members of the task committee working on this project, and wanted to start this thread to allow a forum for general thoughts and comments on the article, as well as to raise awareness.
I am tagging those who commented on the article so far for further comment here if desired. @Monica McCluskey @John McLaughlin @Martha Vangeem @Arun Kumar Rao @Charles Fowler @Joshua Steelman @Arun Kumar
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Stephanie Slocum P.E.,M.ASCE
Founder
Engineers Rising LLC
------------------------------