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Non licensed person listed as a PE

  • 1.  Non licensed person listed as a PE

    Posted 07-09-2021 01:51 PM
    Just wanting to know the thoughts out there. I reviewed a report signed by a Licensed Engineer in my state. In the body of the report it listed anther persons name with PE after it then noted they are not licensed in my state. Checking with the state, they are not and wondering thoughts on do I call them, turn them in, or just let it go?

    ------------------------------
    George Miles P.E., M.ASCE
    President
    Alligator Engineering Inc
    Edgewater FL
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Non licensed person listed as a PE

    Posted 07-09-2021 08:23 PM
    I'm not sure what you would report.   If they are registered in another state, they are still P.Es.  They aren't the P.E. of record who signed the report, and the report made it clear that their registration was in another state.   I would be surprised if this was considered any sort of ethical issue.

    ------------------------------
    Timothy Murphy P.E., M.ASCE
    Professor
    Trine University
    Angola IN
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Non licensed person listed as a PE

    Posted 07-12-2021 01:30 PM
    George, without knowing the context of  the report and how the out of state PE name is used, its hard to judge. However, I think the author of the report covered themselves by stating that that PE is not licensed in Florida. It is clear that he is not intending to practice not advertising for work in Florida as they added the disclaimer that he is licensed in another state. Is this guy competing with you?

    Based on your post, it is my opinion, I do not see any valid reason or rational for you to turn them in. I have been practicing in the state of Florida and other two states for over 32 years and had my multi-disciplinary engineering offices for over 22 years.

    For example, you signed your question with PE title and your name in a national forum that can be read in all states and world wide. So, if a fellow engineer in Virginia (assuming you are not licensed in VA) reads this post, should they ask themselves the same question you have asked? Think about it.

    Do you know if Frank Marshall still practicing in New Smyrna Beach? I have not spoken with him for years.

    Regards,
    Lutfi Mized


    ------------------------------
    Lutfi Mized P.E., M.ASCE
    President/Structural Engineer
    LPM Technical Services Inc
    Merritt Island FL
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Non licensed person listed as a PE

    Posted 07-12-2021 09:15 AM
    Not sure what is there to report. They did noted and informed that they are not licensed in your state. If they are  registered licensed PE in another state, they are still PE and reliable engineer. Not sure what can be accomplished by reporting. They have not done anything wrong.

    ------------------------------
    Paresh Thakkar A.M.ASCE
    Civil/ Water Resources Engineer
    Mount Prospect IL
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Non licensed person listed as a PE

    Posted 07-11-2021 02:29 PM
    Massachusetts is very particular about being licensed in Mass for including PE (from another state) after your name for professional work.  As in another reply, if the report didn't specify the non-state PE as the engineer of record, I agree that PEs should be able to list their license from whereever.  Turns out that my NH PE actually requires 30 hours of CEUs every 2 years, while Mass doesn't require any!  Just, "not more than a pound" of your work when you first apply for your license, which in my case is now 20 years ago.

    ------------------------------
    Sarah Simon P.E., ENV SP, M.ASCE
    Founding Partner
    Ipswich MA
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Non licensed person listed as a PE

    Posted 07-12-2021 11:10 AM
    I have the opinion that the engineer of record is ultimately the person responsible for the content of the report. References in the report to me are part of the content. I may be wrong, but a person referenced who is an engineer licensed in another state has no opinion holds no water. Imagine referencing Gustave Eiffel or I.M. Pei, Fazlur Khan, etc. I may be all wet here and would be interested in alls opinion.

    Vito Rotondi
    Arch, SE, PE (retired)

    ------------------------------
    Vito Rotondi,
    Arch. S.E. P.E. M ASCE
    Westmont Illinois
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Non licensed person listed as a PE

    Posted 07-12-2021 01:29 PM
    I agree with others in that I don't know what you would report or why you would want to.  The PE after their name is identifying credentials. It is no different than a doctor or lawyer using credentials after their name. Your text says, "in the body of the report."  Did they sign and stamp?  They can even sign as long as it's not sealed.  From the limited info provided, it sounds like they were merely using the engineer's credentials to iterate experience on a specific field of expertise.

    ------------------------------
    Jeremy Gilliam P.E., M.ASCE
    Project Engineer
    Westwater Engineering
    Grand Junction CO
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Non licensed person listed as a PE

    Posted 07-14-2021 02:52 PM

    Boy, this is an interesting topic! Thanks George Miles for floating this practical aspect of engineering licensure. We have discussed similar issues in another context: Q.MIGHT THERE BE PROBLEMS WITH "ONE-SIZE-FITS ALL" . . . I am tempted to add the following based on what I read in different postings.

    • First of all, perhaps it is important to distinguish between trivia, and the fundamental matters of importance for which engineering licensure is required or enacted in the first place.
    • The most fundamental matter of importance is unequivocally specified – in virtually all licensure documents in one way or another: hold paramount the safety, health and welfare of the public . . . Licensed or unlicensed, we learn this fundamental in our engineering schools – because this is a very basic responsibility – not only of engineers but of other professions as well – also expected of common public social interactions. While it is required of all, in regulatory and legal context, the compliance of this fundamental gets focused and is examined in performances of the Engineer of Record (as also pointed out by Timothy Murphy).
    • Mentioning or not-mentioning licensure title in email signatures or in scientific documents – is like a trivia. And holding someone responsible because of some jurisdictional mismatch is like: That's ridiculous (Bevin Beaudet comment). Of course, a licensing authority can pick up on anything – because of their power. But there is a danger that if an entity spends unnecessary time (that is paid for by licensee fees) on trivia – then the real purpose of licensing can be compromised or defeated.
    • It is interesting to note from the comment of Jennifer Zieger that Federal agencies like USACE – does not see licensure through the lens of jurisdictional context. Perhaps from their viewpoint – a project in one state may impact in another – and if it does, then jurisdictional wrangling can pose a tremendous hurdle to get things done.

    ------
    Dilip

    Website

    ORCID ID

    Google Scholar



    ------------------------------
    Dr. Dilip Barua, Ph.D, P.Eng, M. ASCE
    Vancouver, BC, Canada
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Non licensed person listed as a PE

    Posted 07-15-2021 12:58 PM
    A lot of information is missing in this puzzle.  However, the guidelines of the state's regulating body regarding use of the seal where multiple engineers are contributing to a report. What is missing in your info are the roles, relationships and possible divisions of responsibility of the individual stakeholders.  In my state, licensed engineers are not to utilize another engineer's data without notification and permission.  The key is the responsible PE in charge. In some areas, their seal and signature may act to encompass the entire report from a variety of engineers.
    Depending on the nature of their input to the report, if I found a mistake in the manner in which it is handle, I would contact the engineers in question and inform them of a possible violation so that they can make the corrections to the report.

    ------------------------------
    James Williams P.E., M.ASCE
    Principal/Owner
    POA&M Structural Engineering, PLC
    Yorktown, VA
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Non licensed person listed as a PE

    Posted 07-19-2021 01:25 PM
    I ran across this restriction in Rhode Island many years ago and just checked that it is still current. According to 430-RICR-00-00-1 Rules and Regulations for Professional Engineering, "It shall be unlawful for any person to practice, or to offer to practice, engineering in this State, or to use in connection with his or her name or otherwise assume, or advertise any title or description tending to convey the impression that he or she is an engineer unless that person has been duly registered or exempted under the provisions R.I. Gen. Laws § 5-8-1 et seq." Also, "Any individual and/or firm who submits a response to a request for proposals ("RFP"), or any other bidding method which requires the performance of any engineering work or services, shall be construed to be offering to practice engineering in this State." This seems to state that regardless of how a project might ultimately be staffed, any proposal for engineering work would need to be submitted by a RI P.E. Any use in connection with a name "tending to convey the impression that he or she is an engineer" would also appear to be a violation unless the P.E. is registered in Rhode Island.

    ------------------------------
    Ralph Grismala P.E., M.ASCE
    Technical Director
    ICF International
    Hermitage TN
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Non licensed person listed as a PE

    Posted 07-10-2021 09:51 AM
    I got a warning years ago for sending an email to another state on a joint project for having PE after my name and not being licensed.  The email said what states I had but the board said that was still a violation since I was not licensed in that state. 





  • 12.  RE: Non licensed person listed as a PE

    Posted 07-11-2021 12:42 PM
    I sincerely doubt that any state board could enforce any type of action against you for an email that lists you as a PE in your identified state. That's ridiculous.

    ------------------------------
    Bevin Beaudet P.E., M.ASCE
    President/Owner
    Bevin A. Beaudet, P.E., LLC.
    Bethlehem PA
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Non licensed person listed as a PE

    Posted 07-11-2021 03:18 PM
    I think part of it depends on the state and in the context it was used. In this context, they were using it as if they were a licensed PE which he is which he is but not in the state which the report was issued. So the question becomes if you're using the person using as a PE in your report then he must be licensed in that state.  
     I think this is gonna take a call to the board for clarification





  • 14.  RE: Non licensed person listed as a PE

    Posted 07-11-2021 04:17 PM
    I would say that most of the work I did as a consultant was outside my state of licensure.   But I was never the engineer of record signing documents, so there were never any issues.   Ultimately, isn't it just the signator who assumes all the responsibility for the work being done?   It still seems that if that original report made it clear the licenses were in other states, they weren't misrepresenting themselves.  But I guess certain states might see it differently.

    ------------------------------
    Timothy Murphy P.E., M.ASCE
    Professor
    Trine University
    Angola IN
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Non licensed person listed as a PE

    Posted 07-12-2021 09:40 AM
    The context of your subject report is not clear. Based on your rational, if an engineer is writing a port based on research by a PhD and PE in another state and he references such work of an engineer, is that a violation?

    ------------------------------
    Lutfi Mized P.E., M.ASCE
    President/Structural Engineer
    LPM Technical Services Inc
    Merritt Island FL
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Non licensed person listed as a PE

    Posted 07-12-2021 03:23 PM
    What your missing is this is not a signed document. Again the PE board in Florida said that you do not put PE after your name if your not licensed in the state the signed document is being issued. This is a violation. In fact checking with others, this is a violation in most states.

    ------------------------------
    George Miles P.E., M.ASCE
    President
    Alligator Engineering Inc
    Edgewater FL
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Non licensed person listed as a PE

    Posted 07-12-2021 11:10 AM
    The issue may not be whether or not you are licensed in another state. In Texas, most contracts stipulate that the work will be done by an engineer licensed in the State of Texas.  Other engineers can work on the product only if under the direction of a licensed Texas PE.  Does not make sense for an engineer in another state to sign any documents in this case as the Engineer responsible for overseeing the work should be from Texas and if they truly oversaw the work, they should be the one to sign it. Having an out of state engineer sign a document gives the impression the work was done under their responsible charge which is not acceptable in Texas.

    ------------------------------
    Martin Gonzalez P.E., M.ASCE
    Department Manager
    RPS Infrastructure, Inc.
    Houston TX
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Non licensed person listed as a PE

    Posted 07-12-2021 02:11 PM
    Update for clarity for everyone.

    The report was prepared by an Engineer licensed in Alabama for  the State of Florida and signed by an Engineer licensed in Florida.

    The Florida PE board just responded and said that if you are not licensed in the State then you cannot have PE after your name in any report or official document it is a violation of Florida rule and in fact it is a rule in most states. So if you are putting PE after your name for a report or official document that will be stamped by another Engineer in another state were you are not licensed, you can be in trouble and fined.

    ------------------------------
    George Miles P.E., M.ASCE
    President
    Alligator Engineering Inc
    Edgewater FL
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Non licensed person listed as a PE

    Posted 07-13-2021 10:06 AM
    I agree with the Florida Board on this.  Since the AL engineer isn't licensed in FL they are acting like an EI since somebody else has to stamp their work. I wouldn't report them but I would ask them to remove PE from their title in the report.

    I, personally, am very careful about using PE or engineer in official documents when I am not licensed in a state. The only exception is when I am doing work for USACE who has an exception.

    ------------------------------
    Jennifer Sloan Ziegler Ph.D., P.E., M.ASCE
    Ridgeland MS
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Non licensed person listed as a PE

    Posted 07-12-2021 07:11 PM
    It seems to me it depends on the contexts of the report prepared by the out of state engineer.  According to the clarification, the out of state engineer is licensed in Alabama and the in state engineer is licensed in Florida.  If, as the clarification implies, the Alabama engineer prepared the report specifically for a Florida project and the Florida engineer signed it, I would be concerned that both parties could be in trouble, The Alabama engineer for practicing in Florida with out a license and the Florida engineer for "plan stamping".  On the other hand if the Florida engineer wants to use a widget designed by an Alabama company with a report of its properties or capabilities provided by the Alabama engineer on his letterhead with an Alabama address I don't see why there would be a problem with the Alabama engineer signing with a PE after his name since the report would only be a reference within the Florida engineer's report.  It all depends on the context.

    ------------------------------
    Gerald Orrison P.E., M.ASCE
    Senior Engineer
    Temcor
    Huntington Bh CA
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Non licensed person listed as a PE

    Posted 07-13-2021 08:35 AM
    Most of us here are using P.E. in the forum.  If the person who prepare the report was an Alabama E.I.T. and the signer was a Florida, P.E. there would not appear to be an issue.  One question that is being left out, is - Does the firm have a certificate to practice in Florida and are they insured in Florida?  Perhaps there is need for the boards to clarify their rules for today, as they were not written in the age of Collaborate, Linkedin, or email.

    I received a pack of business cards and P.E. was not included as my credential and had to be added.  Does that credential not mean anything to a potential client or colleague?  Of course it does!  Does ASCE have any statistics on engineers registered in all 50 states?  I don't know that anyone, even the public, would assume this is the case.  The spirit of the rule would seem to indicate that an engineer advertising or implying that they are able to practice within a state that they are not registered in is prohibited.  I would think this would be the phone book, billboard, or TV commercial.  Lawyers on TV will put this in the fine print.

    I include P.E. in my email signature.  This is a recognized level of credential.  I can list the states, but unless I am producing a signed document, the contents of the email speak for themselves and are not being issued as formal construction documents for record.  Perhaps this could be added to the boiler plate email disclaimer regarding copying, but I don't see it as necessary.  Should clarification be required, I can offer it.  When I receive loading information in an email I check if the sender is a P.E. or E.I.T.  Otherwise, I may be receiving unreliable information.

    ------------------------------
    Chad Morrison P.E., M.ASCE
    Professional Engineer
    Greenville RI
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Non licensed person listed as a PE

    Posted 07-13-2021 10:06 AM
    What you said goes in line with most rules, You can use PE as long as it is clear of your state(s) that you have a license. The issue becomes if a stamp is added to a report in another state that lists a non licensed engineer in that state with PE after their name. Even if it says that they are registered in another state, PE is only to be used in reports that are stamped by Engineers who are licensed in that state.

    They can put EIT and that would be legal in all states as long as they passed.

    ------------------------------
    George Miles P.E., M.ASCE
    President
    Alligator Engineering Inc
    Edgewater FL
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Non licensed person listed as a PE

    Posted 07-15-2021 04:12 PM
    James:
    I believe you have covered it very well. This is why we have "Engineer of Record and Engineer In Responsible Charge". I don't recall ever having " Co-Engineer of Record and Co-Engineers In Responsible Charge". Maybe I missed it, but never encountered it. The rule is always a single point of responsibility which in our business weather engineering or construction and just good management makes accountability clear.

    ------------------------------
    Vito Rotondi, (Retired)
    Arch. S.E. P.E. M ASCE
    Westmont Illinois
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Non licensed person listed as a PE

    Posted 07-16-2021 09:07 AM
    What everyone must understand is that as a licensed Engineer you should not include the PE after another persons name in a report if they are not licensed in the State you are issuing the report in. You are aiding a non licensed person in performing Engineering tasks in writing while you can list them as a contributor to the report without the PE. This is an Ethics issue and if you do not see it that way then you should re read the rules on this. I find it disturbing that some do not see this as an issue.

    ------------------------------
    George Miles P.E., M.ASCE
    President
    Alligator Engineering Inc
    Edgewater FL
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: Non licensed person listed as a PE

    Posted 07-16-2021 10:37 AM
    Based on the discussion, there does not seem to be consensus and your otherwise simple question has brought an important issue to light.  In this case, I would call the preparer of the report directly to discuss the issue as a peer.  Notification to the board does not seem warranted, unless you see something nefarious about business practices meant to skirt state regulations.

    Are references attached to the report considered part of the report?  My references typically include emails and RFIs that list PE titles.  My report content typically only contain my initials when it is stamped by our chief engineer.

    ------------------------------
    Chad Morrison P.E., M.ASCE
    Professional Engineer
    Greenville RI
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Non licensed person listed as a PE

    Posted 07-20-2021 07:47 PM

    In Houston, TX, about 1979, I was the firm's dept. hd. for Land Development.

    Due to ever-increasing work volume, we went into a hiring mode.

    Amongst other tasks, I had my sect. routinely call the state board to verify the name and license number for
    any P.E. applicant.

    We learned that one was fraudulently using another's PE number.

    When we told him, I recall him saying, "I  had no idea you would check that, no one else in this city does!"

    S
    tay Healthy!
    Cheers,
    Bill



    ------------------------------
    William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
    Buffalo, N.Y.

    "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: Non licensed person listed as a PE

    Posted 07-19-2021 01:47 PM
    Rhode Island does allow a 30-day exemption (per year) for temporary licensing of non-residents: "The practice or offer to practice of engineering by a person not a resident of or having no established place of business in this state, when that practice does not exceed in the aggregate more than thirty (30) days in any calendar year; provided, the person is legally qualified by registration to practice engineering, as defined in § 5-8-2(h), in his or her own state or country. The person shall make application to the board, in writing, and after payment of a fee set by the board in an amount not to exceed two hundred dollars ($200) may be granted a written temporary certificate of registration for a definite period of time to do a specific job; provided, no right to practice engineering accrues to an applicant as to any work not prescribed in the temporary certificate."

    ------------------------------
    Ralph Grismala P.E., M.ASCE
    Technical Director
    ICF International
    Hermitage TN
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: Non licensed person listed as a PE

    Posted 07-19-2021 05:09 PM
    I am a licensed engineer but not in RI. I was hired by the Burrillville Sewer Commission as an expert witness in a case against an equipment vendor. The job required a lot of engineering calculations. The dependents filed an objection to my expert witness role because I am not registered in RI. Here is what my client's attorney dug up which the judge used to deny their request. It's a good read, especially the RI Supreme Courts written judgement.

     

    "The Rhode Island Supreme Court recently held in Owens v. Payless Cashways, Inc., et al, 670 A.2d 1240 (R.I. 1996) that the lack of an engineering license was not a bar to accepting a person as an expert witness. Id at 1241. In that case, the defendants objected to an engineering expert proffered by the plaintiff, and asserted that the statutory definition of the phrase 'practice of engineering' included the giving of expert testimony in a court of law. Id. at 1242. The trial justice stated that he was not able to 'separate' the witness's conduct as an expert from 'all of the professional activity that is required for him to reach the opinion,' and concluded that the plaintiff's witness could not give his opinion because he was not a licensed engineer. Id. at 1243. The Supreme Court disagreed, stating 'We find no language in chapter 8 of title 5 mandating registration as a prerequisite to expert witness qualification.' Id. at 1244. The Court stated:

     

    'If we were to adopt defendants' contention made on oral argument, we would in effect preclude expert testimony from, for example, Archimedes himself, the Greek mathematician, physicist, and inventor -- credited with the discovery of the principle of the lever -- had he come to testify in our courts without first obtaining his license to practice engineering in Rhode Island. Wernher von Braun, the father of our national space program, absent a Rhode Island license, would also fall into that category of ineligibility. We do not believe that our Legislature intended that persons of great learning in the engineering field should be barred from testifying in our courts, and assisting the triers of fact, merely because they have not been licensed here in their respective fields of expertise.'"

     



    ------------------------------
    Bevin Beaudet P.E., M.ASCE
    President/Owner
    Bevin A. Beaudet, P.E., LLC.
    Bethlehem PA
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: Non licensed person listed as a PE

    Posted 07-19-2021 06:33 PM
    I think the important aspect here is that you're not applying your stamp climb your stamp and being an expert witness.  And a stamp is applied to a report then it makes it a report for that state the report for that state that the person is licensed in so therefore if you are PE in one state and the report is being signed in a specific state that you are not licensed in then you should not have PE after your name.
    Actually a lot of states have this already in the rules.