- Example potential result when not employing a Professional Licensed Land Surveyor:
The Scene:
Summer, daytime, located in a town where roads with land boundaries are shared, in part with adjoining towns.
Clear, sunny day, with no rain predicted.
Town Highway Crews widening the intersection of five (5) roads with town boundaries not "Neatly" configured.
The supervising Town Highway engineer, a licensed P.E., has to leave the site for a meeting some 20 minutes away. Before he leaves, he walks the man (non-licensed L.S.) who normally does the so-called highway construction engineering surveys over to a location about 12 to 15 feet off the paved road and onto adjoining land. He points to the top of quite an old survey boundary monument, exposed vertically about 2 inches. He quite clearly tells the man that under no circumstance is this monument to be disturbed!
When the Town Highway Engineer returns, he gasps when he sees that the very road corner where the boundary monument was located has been entirely removed. He parks and then begins to briskly walk towards the fellow who was instructed to assure the monument was not to be disturbed.
The unlicensed construction surveyor holds up his hand, and with a wide smile gestures for them to meet at the rear of his pickup. He, quite pleased with himself, points to a spot within the back of the truck where the boundary marker/monument now sits. . .cleaned and resting on a cloth.
"See," he tells the engineer, "it's safe, not even chipped!
Stay Healthy!
Cheers,
Bill
p.s. The above is a factually true incident. I actually happened by the site right when the two guys went to the back of the pickup truck!
pp.'s And as "Required," the monument was not disturbed.
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William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
Buffalo, N.Y.
"It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
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Original Message:
Sent: 12-18-2020 10:05 AM
From: Yance Marti
Subject: Professional registration requirements for Army COE Construction Projects
In Milwaukee, we have always had technicians that perform construction staking for paving, sewer, water, and bridge projects for well over a hundred years. They also do initial background surveys and lay out base lines for these projects. They do bench mark circuits, re-establish section corners based on ties, and other surveying tasks. For this type of work, it wasn't necessary to have the level of proficiency as a RLS. Some of the techs went on to get their licensure based on that experience, mostly so they could run a side business. A few years back we hired a RLS on staff to train technician field crews and make sure everything was done according to a standard. He found that there was a lot of sloppy procedures and lack of formal training that did not produce really good results. Maybe good enough for general work but not much more. Even though some had been doing the work for many years, they did not have RLS-quality work. So, experience by itself, without proper and continuous training doesn't mean a lot.
Then there is the type of work. For general construction staking of roads, it is not rocket science. Of course, if you don't do proper checks while laying out lines, you could build a road in the wrong location which is never good. Laying out other infrastructure is going to require more care and you want someone with better training and possibly licensure. An engineer or technician who is experienced at laying out roads is not someone you want to have staking out a large, towering building or any sensitive infrastructure. I would hesitate to make a blanket statement that a RLS is not required for all construction projects or surveying and would suggest you think about what a PE or technician should be allowed to do surveying work for. Any PE may have had one or two semesters of college surveying and is not capable of doing anything but basic surveying work. An RLS in the State of Wisconsin should be much more knowledgeable about any type of surveying work and the accuracy required.
In your case, there should be nothing stopping you from getting a RLS license.
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Yance Marti P.E., M.ASCE
Civil Engineer IV
City of Milwaukee
Milwaukee WI
Original Message:
Sent: 12-16-2020 09:53 AM
From: Randy Lund
Subject: Professional registration requirements for Army COE Construction Projects
I need a resource to assist in changing the Army COE (and other agencies) stance on requiring a Professional Land Surveyor to perform Engineering Project surveys.
Part of email to Army COE:
I again, respectfully, request a re-evaluation of the Specification requiring a PLS.
The response, so far, has NOT stated any particular reason for NOT allowing a Professional Engineer with vast surveying experience and training, to substitute for a PLS.
I am asking for the Contracting Officer to comment on this matter, for 2 reasons:
1) The Army Corps of ENGINEER's, should surely recognize the value of a Professional Engineer, relative to conducting the Project Engineering Surveys.
2) The HUB Zone set-aside, is intended to give small disadvantaged contractor's a chance to succeed, and a Specification that does NOT make any sense or have any justification, is going to cause an unnecessary economic detriment to the success of the HUB Zone contractor – Lund Engineering.
Please re-evaluate this final request, to help me understand, the previous responses, which have NOT given any real reason for the requirement in Spec 02-21-00
All the other parts of 02-21-00, are easily accomplished and standard procedure.
Part of ACE Spec:
1.3 PROFESSIONAL REGISTRATION
Complete all surveys under the direction of and certified by a Professional
Registered Land Surveyor currently licensed/registered. Submit
documentation verifying that the licensed/registered Professional
Registered Land Surveyor has at least three years of experience performing
similar types of work.
I am a Professional Engineer with 30 years of experience, and have vast construction staking experience.
My UW Madison CEE degree included a Survey Option, which is equivilent to a 4 year Survey degree.
Please assist or provide resources to change this situation.
The Spec should allow both a PLS and a qualified PE to perform Construction Survey.
Thanks
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Randy Lund P.E., M.ASCE
Project Manager
Washburn WI
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