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Building a Tossed Salad - One way to think about Architectural Engineering

If the Architect provides the bowl and the constructor the fork,

The Structural Engineer brings the lettuce,

The Mechanical Engineer brings the cucumbers and peppers,

The Electrical and Lightings Engineer supplies the tomato and egg slices,

Don’t forget to ask the Acoustical Engineers to bring the croutons.

What does the Architectural Engineer bring to the table? … SALAD DRESSING

Once the salad is tossed, the dressing is stuck to every piece of the salad, the bowl and the fork.

Without the dressing, the ingredients are simple separate pieces.

Building a Tossed Salad - One way to think about Architectural Engineering

If the Architect provides the bowl and the constructor the fork,

The Structural Engineer brings the lettuce,

The Mechanical Engineer brings the cucumbers and peppers,

The Electrical and Lightings Engineer supplies the tomato and egg slices,

Don’t forget to ask the Acoustical Engineers to bring the croutons.

What does the Architectural Engineer bring to the table? … SALAD DRESSING

Once the salad is tossed, the dressing is stuck to every piece of the salad, the bowl and the fork.

Without the dressing, the ingredients are simple separate pieces.

Building a Tossed Salad - One way to think about Architectural Engineering

If the Architect provides the bowl and the constructor the fork,

The Structural Engineer brings the lettuce,

The Mechanical Engineer brings the cucumbers and peppers,

The Electrical and Lightings Engineer supplies the tomato and egg slices,

Don’t forget to ask the Acoustical Engineers to bring the croutons.

What does the Architectural Engineer bring to the table? … SALAD DRESSING

Once the salad is tossed, the dressing is stuck to every piece of the salad, the bowl and the fork.

Without the dressing, the ingredients are simple separate pieces.

What about the Civil and Chemical Engineers?

Building a Tossed Salad - One way to think about Architectural Engineering

If the Architect provides the bowl and the constructor the fork,

The Structural Engineer brings the lettuce,

The Mechanical Engineer brings the cucumbers and peppers,

The Electrical and Lightings Engineer supplies the tomato and egg slices,

Don’t forget to ask the Acoustical Engineers to bring the croutons.

What does the Architectural Engineer bring to the table? … SALAD DRESSING

Once the salad is tossed, the dressing is stuck to every piece of the salad, the bowl and the fork.

Without the dressing, the ingredients are simple separate pieces.

Civil Engineers and chemical engineers are certainly important to the integrated building team. The salad analogy was not meant to be exhaustive. Perhaps we can consider: Chemical Engineers bring the salt and pepper and the Civil Engineers bring the table cloth.

What about the Civil and Chemical Engineers?

Building a Tossed Salad - One way to think about Architectural Engineering

If the Architect provides the bowl and the constructor the fork,

The Structural Engineer brings the lettuce,

The Mechanical Engineer brings the cucumbers and peppers,

The Electrical and Lightings Engineer supplies the tomato and egg slices,

Don’t forget to ask the Acoustical Engineers to bring the croutons.

What does the Architectural Engineer bring to the table? … SALAD DRESSING

Once the salad is tossed, the dressing is stuck to every piece of the salad, the bowl and the fork.

Without the dressing, the ingredients are simple separate pieces.

I like the image of the architectural engineer as the salad dressing and the integrator of the disciplines, but I am not seeing it occur in real life. The bumper sticker definition of architectural engineering seems to be “anything in the design of a building that requires a calculator” which includes the structure, the electrical system, the mechanical system, any engineering that occurs during construction, and can even include fire suppression systems and acoustics.  The problem is that no single person does all of this stuff.  The architectural engineers tend to specialize and eventually become structural engineers, mechanical engineers, electrical engineers, or construction superintendents.  The broad nature of AE programs provides a larger perspective that makes these engineers better at their jobs and better able to collaborate with others, but that is different than being the integrator of the disciplines. 

Here is where I believe that we have a challenge with our identity.  If I am involved in a design / construction project, I understand when I need the architect, the structural engineer, the electrical engineer, the mechanical engineer, the project manager, and the contractors and I understand their roles.  At what point in the project does one say “I need the architectural engineer” and what does that person do?  It seems that the salad dressing moniker would go to the individual who has the lead on the project and hires/directs /manages the other specialties.  That person exists, but it is not the architectural engineer.  I welcome some examples on real projects that help to explain how an architectural engineer has actually integrated the disciplines.

The fact that I have been a department head of an architectural engineering program for ten years and still have to ask this questions indicates that we might have an identity problem as a profession, which makes it difficult to explain to prospective students why they should join us.  Because Cal Poly focuses so heavily on structural engineering, I feel more comfortable in our identity, but I would love to hear some other opinions and follow-up discussion on this issue.

Civil Engineers and chemical engineers are certainly important to the integrated building team. The salad analogy was not meant to be exhaustive. Perhaps we can consider: Chemical Engineers bring the salt and pepper and the Civil Engineers bring the table cloth.

What about the Civil and Chemical Engineers?

Building a Tossed Salad - One way to think about Architectural Engineering

If the Architect provides the bowl and the constructor the fork,

The Structural Engineer brings the lettuce,

The Mechanical Engineer brings the cucumbers and peppers,

The Electrical and Lightings Engineer supplies the tomato and egg slices,

Don’t forget to ask the Acoustical Engineers to bring the croutons.

What does the Architectural Engineer bring to the table? … SALAD DRESSING

Once the salad is tossed, the dressing is stuck to every piece of the salad, the bowl and the fork.

Without the dressing, the ingredients are simple separate pieces.

Indeed, the salad model is exactly I what I have seen on the ASc in Architectural Drawing course, although many fellows wish to follow Architecture as their major, this minor focus in the project, and tries to integrate all areas. It is not as specific as the minor in Building Construction, yet has the same building authority accredited by our local council, and looks

for a professional that will look at the project as an architect, and take

care of the structure as an engineer. However, this course (Architecture Drawing) is out of the Architecture scope, and professionals who decide to pick Engineer as major goes further than the civil and the structural one, because (s)he is so much more familiar with a broad view of the building.

I like the image of the architectural engineer as the salad dressing and the integrator of the disciplines, but I am not seeing it occur in real life. The bumper sticker definition of architectural engineering seems to be “anything in the design of a building that requires a calculator” which includes the structure, the electrical system, the mechanical system, any engineering that occurs during construction, and can even include fire suppression systems and acoustics.  The problem is that no single person does all of this stuff.  The architectural engineers tend to specialize and eventually become structural engineers, mechanical engineers, electrical engineers, or construction superintendents.  The broad nature of AE programs provides a larger perspective that makes these engineers better at their jobs and better able to collaborate with others, but that is different than being the integrator of the disciplines. 

Here is where I believe that we have a challenge with our identity.  If I am involved in a design / construction project, I understand when I need the architect, the structural engineer, the electrical engineer, the mechanical engineer, the project manager, and the contractors and I understand their roles.  At what point in the project does one say “I need the architectural engineer” and what does that person do?  It seems that the salad dressing moniker would go to the individual who has the lead on the project and hires/directs /manages the other specialties.  That person exists, but it is not the architectural engineer.  I welcome some examples on real projects that help to explain how an architectural engineer has actually integrated the disciplines.

The fact that I have been a department head of an architectural engineering program for ten years and still have to ask this questions indicates that we might have an identity problem as a profession, which makes it difficult to explain to prospective students why they should join us.  Because Cal Poly focuses so heavily on structural engineering, I feel more comfortable in our identity, but I would love to hear some other opinions and follow-up discussion on this issue.

Civil Engineers and chemical engineers are certainly important to the integrated building team. The salad analogy was not meant to be exhaustive. Perhaps we can consider: Chemical Engineers bring the salt and pepper and the Civil Engineers bring the table cloth.

What about the Civil and Chemical Engineers?

Building a Tossed Salad - One way to think about Architectural Engineering

If the Architect provides the bowl and the constructor the fork,

The Structural Engineer brings the lettuce,

The Mechanical Engineer brings the cucumbers and peppers,

The Electrical and Lightings Engineer supplies the tomato and egg slices,

Don’t forget to ask the Acoustical Engineers to bring the croutons.

What does the Architectural Engineer bring to the table? … SALAD DRESSING

Once the salad is tossed, the dressing is stuck to every piece of the salad, the bowl and the fork.

Without the dressing, the ingredients are simple separate pieces.

I like the image of the architectural engineer as the salad dressing and the integrator of the disciplines, but I am not seeing it occur in real life. The bumper sticker definition of architectural engineering seems to be “anything in the design of a building that requires a calculator” which includes the structure, the electrical system, the mechanical system, any engineering that occurs during construction, and can even include fire suppression systems and acoustics.  The problem is that no single person does all of this stuff.  The architectural engineers tend to specialize and eventually become structural engineers, mechanical engineers, electrical engineers, or construction superintendents.  The broad nature of AE programs provides a larger perspective that makes these engineers better at their jobs and better able to collaborate with others, but that is different than being the integrator of the disciplines. 

Here is where I believe that we have a challenge with our identity.  If I am involved in a design / construction project, I understand when I need the architect, the structural engineer, the electrical engineer, the mechanical engineer, the project manager, and the contractors and I understand their roles.  At what point in the project does one say “I need the architectural engineer” and what does that person do?  It seems that the salad dressing moniker would go to the individual who has the lead on the project and hires/directs /manages the other specialties.  That person exists, but it is not the architectural engineer.  I welcome some examples on real projects that help to explain how an architectural engineer has actually integrated the disciplines.

The fact that I have been a department head of an architectural engineering program for ten years and still have to ask this questions indicates that we might have an identity problem as a profession, which makes it difficult to explain to prospective students why they should join us.  Because Cal Poly focuses so heavily on structural engineering, I feel more comfortable in our identity, but I would love to hear some other opinions and follow-up discussion on this issue.

Civil Engineers and chemical engineers are certainly important to the integrated building team. The salad analogy was not meant to be exhaustive. Perhaps we can consider: Chemical Engineers bring the salt and pepper and the Civil Engineers bring the table cloth.

What about the Civil and Chemical Engineers?

Building a Tossed Salad - One way to think about Architectural Engineering

If the Architect provides the bowl and the constructor the fork,

The Structural Engineer brings the lettuce,

The Mechanical Engineer brings the cucumbers and peppers,

The Electrical and Lightings Engineer supplies the tomato and egg slices,

Don’t forget to ask the Acoustical Engineers to bring the croutons.

What does the Architectural Engineer bring to the table? … SALAD DRESSING

Once the salad is tossed, the dressing is stuck to every piece of the salad, the bowl and the fork.

Without the dressing, the ingredients are simple separate pieces.

Thank you everyone for the very interesting view points offered in this thread. There are two points which I would like to follow up with a couple of questions.

1. Not seeing the salad dressing in practice

2. Training to pass the architecture exam.

Stephen Covey said somewhere in the 7 habits series: threat them as they ought to be and they'll became what they ought to be (paraphrasing)

So my questions are:

1. Is Architectural Engineering a philosophical leaning, an attitude, a way of life, or a job title?

2. Is the building integrator the quarterback or the team captain?

I like the image of the architectural engineer as the salad dressing and the integrator of the disciplines, but I am not seeing it occur in real life. The bumper sticker definition of architectural engineering seems to be “anything in the design of a building that requires a calculator” which includes the structure, the electrical system, the mechanical system, any engineering that occurs during construction, and can even include fire suppression systems and acoustics.  The problem is that no single person does all of this stuff.  The architectural engineers tend to specialize and eventually become structural engineers, mechanical engineers, electrical engineers, or construction superintendents.  The broad nature of AE programs provides a larger perspective that makes these engineers better at their jobs and better able to collaborate with others, but that is different than being the integrator of the disciplines. 

Here is where I believe that we have a challenge with our identity.  If I am involved in a design / construction project, I understand when I need the architect, the structural engineer, the electrical engineer, the mechanical engineer, the project manager, and the contractors and I understand their roles.  At what point in the project does one say “I need the architectural engineer” and what does that person do?  It seems that the salad dressing moniker would go to the individual who has the lead on the project and hires/directs /manages the other specialties.  That person exists, but it is not the architectural engineer.  I welcome some examples on real projects that help to explain how an architectural engineer has actually integrated the disciplines.

The fact that I have been a department head of an architectural engineering program for ten years and still have to ask this questions indicates that we might have an identity problem as a profession, which makes it difficult to explain to prospective students why they should join us.  Because Cal Poly focuses so heavily on structural engineering, I feel more comfortable in our identity, but I would love to hear some other opinions and follow-up discussion on this issue.

Civil Engineers and chemical engineers are certainly important to the integrated building team. The salad analogy was not meant to be exhaustive. Perhaps we can consider: Chemical Engineers bring the salt and pepper and the Civil Engineers bring the table cloth.

What about the Civil and Chemical Engineers?

Building a Tossed Salad - One way to think about Architectural Engineering

If the Architect provides the bowl and the constructor the fork,

The Structural Engineer brings the lettuce,

The Mechanical Engineer brings the cucumbers and peppers,

The Electrical and Lightings Engineer supplies the tomato and egg slices,

Don’t forget to ask the Acoustical Engineers to bring the croutons.

What does the Architectural Engineer bring to the table? … SALAD DRESSING

Once the salad is tossed, the dressing is stuck to every piece of the salad, the bowl and the fork.

Without the dressing, the ingredients are simple separate pieces.

I've been wrestling with this thread for a while now.  Mr. Ling's questions have served to solidify some of my thinking which I will try and describe succinctly.

I have an ArchE B.S. degree and have been using it for almost 21 years.  I also have my P.E. in Mechanical Engineering obtained in 2001.  For the first 5 years of my career I designed all disciplines (mechanical, electrical and plumbing), but as building systems have grown in complexity I have focused more on mechanical/plumbing and project management.

In my experience, Architectural Engineering has served me in providing a greater understanding of the differing systems in a building interact and work together to make up the environments that we as humans spend so much of our time in.  So, as it relates to Mr. Ling's questions, I see Architectural Engineering, at least in practice, more of a way of life or a philosophical leaning.  In 21 years I have yet to see of even hear of an ArchE being the lead of a construction project.  In that regard, I agree with Mr. Estes' statements.

I see the ArchE as being the leader or project manager of the MEP team, possibly including the structural discipline.  The idea of having one person knowledgeable in all disciplines of a project is beneficial and something that I think everyone can see and understand.  However, when it comes to liability and expertise in the various systems, it becomes too much to be embodied in a single person.

Construction is a TEAM effort!!  A team that includes the Owner, Architect, MEP/S engineers, specialty consultants and Contractors.  Each has their area of expertise and involvement in the project.  While usually the architect or the contractor (depending upon the delivery method) take the lead in developing and delivering the project, the project cannot be successful without the involvement of every member of the team.

To Mr. Estes' point, the fact that members of the various ArchE programs in the country are having trouble describing an ArchE to prospective members of our profession does indeed indicate an identity crisis.  Could it be that we are trying too hard to force something on the industry that the industry ultimately does not need or want?

Thank you everyone for the very interesting view points offered in this thread. There are two points which I would like to follow up with a couple of questions.

1. Not seeing the salad dressing in practice

2. Training to pass the architecture exam.

Stephen Covey said somewhere in the 7 habits series: threat them as they ought to be and they'll became what they ought to be (paraphrasing)

So my questions are:

1. Is Architectural Engineering a philosophical leaning, an attitude, a way of life, or a job title?

2. Is the building integrator the quarterback or the team captain?

I like the image of the architectural engineer as the salad dressing and the integrator of the disciplines, but I am not seeing it occur in real life. The bumper sticker definition of architectural engineering seems to be “anything in the design of a building that requires a calculator” which includes the structure, the electrical system, the mechanical system, any engineering that occurs during construction, and can even include fire suppression systems and acoustics.  The problem is that no single person does all of this stuff.  The architectural engineers tend to specialize and eventually become structural engineers, mechanical engineers, electrical engineers, or construction superintendents.  The broad nature of AE programs provides a larger perspective that makes these engineers better at their jobs and better able to collaborate with others, but that is different than being the integrator of the disciplines. 

Here is where I believe that we have a challenge with our identity.  If I am involved in a design / construction project, I understand when I need the architect, the structural engineer, the electrical engineer, the mechanical engineer, the project manager, and the contractors and I understand their roles.  At what point in the project does one say “I need the architectural engineer” and what does that person do?  It seems that the salad dressing moniker would go to the individual who has the lead on the project and hires/directs /manages the other specialties.  That person exists, but it is not the architectural engineer.  I welcome some examples on real projects that help to explain how an architectural engineer has actually integrated the disciplines.

The fact that I have been a department head of an architectural engineering program for ten years and still have to ask this questions indicates that we might have an identity problem as a profession, which makes it difficult to explain to prospective students why they should join us.  Because Cal Poly focuses so heavily on structural engineering, I feel more comfortable in our identity, but I would love to hear some other opinions and follow-up discussion on this issue.

Civil Engineers and chemical engineers are certainly important to the integrated building team. The salad analogy was not meant to be exhaustive. Perhaps we can consider: Chemical Engineers bring the salt and pepper and the Civil Engineers bring the table cloth.

What about the Civil and Chemical Engineers?

Building a Tossed Salad - One way to think about Architectural Engineering

If the Architect provides the bowl and the constructor the fork,

The Structural Engineer brings the lettuce,

The Mechanical Engineer brings the cucumbers and peppers,

The Electrical and Lightings Engineer supplies the tomato and egg slices,

Don’t forget to ask the Acoustical Engineers to bring the croutons.

What does the Architectural Engineer bring to the table? … SALAD DRESSING

Once the salad is tossed, the dressing is stuck to every piece of the salad, the bowl and the fork.

Without the dressing, the ingredients are simple separate pieces.