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Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

  • 1.  Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

    Posted 07-12-2017 04:52 PM

    In June 1995, the culmination of some 3 years or so of preparation, led by professor Dr. Jim Yao, Texas A&M, resulted in an "ASCE Education Conference" in Denver, CO. At the end of that conference session, there was a lively 'give and take' as attendees* raised questions about matters presented. There were four main "gaps" noted that were recommended to be included in the formal education of the next generation of civil engineers. They were knowledge and skills related to:


    1. Leadership,

    2. Teamwork,

    3. Communications, and,
    4. Business Knowledge.

    That information was founded on some 3 years of advance preparation involving business leaders, managers and academics in teaching and administration.

     Then a professor stood and asked of all the following question:

    "Who will first teach us? We never received education on these subjects ourselves. How then do we teach them to our students?"

    To which no one responded.

     The notes above are based on remarks made at the end of the conference to the entire conference audience by Jim Poirot, former ASCE President, and Chair of Ch2M Hill.

     So, here we are some 22 years later.

                       Q1. What changes have been observed in the professional lives of our CE graduates
                            relative to any one or more of the four identified main "Gaps" identified by educational
                            and professional CE experts over two decades ago?

                      Q2. What CE academic programs have developed incorporating parts of the above noted 4 recommended topics?

      
    Respectfully offered for dialogue.

     

     * About 70% academics (faculty, Dept. Hds., Deans), , 25% practitioners, 5% administrators.

     



    ------------------------------
    William Hayden Ph.D., P.E., CP, F.ASCE
    Management Quality By Design, Inc.
    Amherst NY
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

    Posted 07-13-2017 10:23 AM
    Another area of concern listed was engineering salaries which ASCE has refused to take on.  It says increases will come when the bar is raised. I would argue as long as engineers are considered immunizations and not surgery salaries will continue to be depressed by the lawyers who run government agencies and want the low bid.

    ASCE needs to raise the salaries to make it worthwhile for engineers to get over the raised bar.

    ------------------------------
    Robert Adamski P.E., F.ASCE
    Owner
    Brooklyn NY
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

    Posted 07-13-2017 02:47 PM
    I agree with Robert.  It seems like the ultimate conclusion for filling the gaps is to require an MBA on top of a BS in civil engineering.  ASCE can help by continuing to provide extracurricular activities for student chapters.  Maybe the the bridge design and concrete canoe competitions can be replaced with something more business related.  I worked in a beach parking lot during the summer as a kid, that's where I learned business.

    ------------------------------
    Chad Morrison P.E., M.ASCE
    Professional Engineer
    Greenville RI
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

    Posted 07-18-2017 12:54 PM
    Here is where I think the gaps are in the civil engineering education:

    Let's take a standard curriculum plan from a state-school in CA (where I went to school). Normally, a B.S. in Civil Engineering is a 4-to-5-year program. Now let's compare it, to for example, the curriculum from where my uncle, who now is a PE in California, went to school in Baja California, Mexico.

    In CA, the degree consists for the first two years of taking "general education" classes. Besides just your lower division STEM classes (Calculus, Physics, Chemistry, etc) you waste your time having to take electives that include a range from history, art, music, psychology, etc, that have absolutely nothing to do with the civil engineering degree. In the last years (upper division), then you choose "which focus" you want and only have a certain number of classes you can take in geotech, transportation, hydraulics, construction, structural, etc.

    My uncle's curriculum in Mexico (Universidad Autonoma de Baja California) was a 5-year program in civil engineering. They don't wast time taking what I call "Mickey Mouse" classes (the history, art, music, psychology, etc). From day one, they are taking civil engineering related classes. And thus, they are able to take ALL classes in geotech, transportation, hydraulics, construction, structural, etc. since they didn't have to waste time in the Mickey Mouse classes. This made him a better-off and more well-rounded Civil Engineer.

    Now what ASCE in "raising the bar" is wanting to do by requiring a Master's Degree by adding another 1-2 years in education to me is absurd. Instead of that, we need to make the civil engineering degrees more like Mexico, and other countries, that don't waste their time with lower division mickey mouse classes. If you add up the actual class-time of the last 2-3 years in taking Civil Engineering classes in the US plus the time of 1-2 years for a Master's, it adds up to the same time that countries like Mexico spend in taking actual civil engineering classes. Making a Master's a requirement only adds more time needed, and much more money needed to obtain a degree. It's ridiculous enough how much college costs here in the US, let's not make it even more expensive by adding a Master's degree when we already have an alternative.

    ------------------------------
    David Sillas EIT, A.M.ASCE
    Assistant Engineer
    Chula Vista CA
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

    Posted 08-31-2017 12:23 PM
    ​I disagree completely that the general courses are a waste of time for Engineers.  The goal of any college degree program is to create a well rounded individual.  Engineers already have the general reputation as a bunch of nerds who should be given a task and fed under the door until they come out with a solution. 

    We stand in front of the general population and speak in technical terms and the public is completely lost because we cannot relate the concerns and the potential solution in terms that the general public can relate to from their own life.

    History, English, Art , etc. are only a waste of time, when the individual does not see those topics as part of a broader view of their education and their place in the world.  Richard Branson dropped out of school at age 16, and is worth over 5 billion dollars and is considered by many as a visionary.  He doesn't consider those "Mickey Mouse" fields useless. He considers the non-technical issues to be essential to an understanding of people and the business world.  He also considers the specialized training you need to do your job well as part of his business plan.  He has a great quote "Train people well enough so they can leave, but treat them well enough so they don't want to".    The easy A I got in a graduate class (taken as a Senior in college) in "Theories of Motivation" has been essential in my ability to get the most out of my staff.

    The business world used to perform a lot of training to develop quality employees.  Then we let the "bean counters" start to run our businesses and they decided that all that specialized training was expensive and not worth the expense.  Part of the problem is that we no longer have any loyalty to our employees and so in turn, our employees have no loyalty to the companies.  It is not worth providing our employees with specialized training because they will then leave the company and we have wasted our money say the business administration leaders.  The employee response is why should I be loyal to that company when they haven't done anything for me and will lay me off to get a higher rate of return for the investors. 

    A college degree is to teach us the basics of a wide range of potential specialties, where we are lacking is our failure to continue our education beyond college.  I attend a couple conferences a year and belong to an ASCE Committee.  I used to get paid time and expenses  to attend the conferences and improve my knowledge (one company required me to give a lunch and learn after the conference, what a great idea).  Now I pay for the conference myself and use vacation time to attend the conference.  30 years ago our company would bring in trainers to teach on topics such as public speaking, how to give a presentation, and how to develop a business plan.  I haven't had a two day internal seminar in 20 years.  That is the gap in our education, not at the university level.

    Until we start to value education outside of the university setting we will continue to be deficient in many areas that are necessary to be a better employee instead of just an adequate engineer.

    ------------------------------
    John Knowlton P.E., M.ASCE
    Sr. Project Engineer
    Anna Maria FL
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

    Posted 09-01-2017 12:45 PM
    "General education" college courses not only add to an individuals overall knowledge, they develop their ability to solve problems.  Engineering, at its very core, is problem solving.  BD

    ------------------------------
    Bryan Danielsen P.E., M.ASCE
    Director of Business Development - Construction Services
    Lamb-Star Engineering
    Plano TX
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

    Posted 09-01-2017 12:46 PM
    I agree with many of the points that John made.  I determined early on that the B.S. in Civil Engineering was a great curriculum but far too narrow so I double registered in the School of Business and pursued a double degree.  It was a hard slog, took me five years and summer schools and very heavy course loads but I managed to obtain both degrees.   I'm glad I did.  There were five other Engineers in the program with me.  We all "aced" the business courses because our Engineering education was oriented to problem solving.  Teaching "not facts but how to think" should be the goal of any education.  Much of the technology I learned is now obsolete but the principles are still valid.  Education was much less expensive in the 1950s and extended time in school may not be possible for most folks these days.  The Air Force paid for my Masters Degree in Civil Engineering.  When I hear Engineers referring to such courses as History, Accounting, English, and Management as "mickey mouse" courses I cringe knowing that they are in for some hard life lessons.  What we learn in College is just the starting point.  Education if a life long process.

    ------------------------------
    James Anderson P.E., M.ASCE
    Project Engineer-Retired
    North Richland Hills TX
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

    Posted 09-01-2017 03:03 PM
    I am not sure how indicating a need for additional business or humanities courses to be a well-rounded professional reflects on practicing engineers today.  How does an engineer make money?  The terms "value engineering" or "form vs. function" should not be lost on anybody here.  A student who knows every formula, concept, skill, and technology needed to be a competent engineer should not be able to graduate if they cannot answer "Why am I performing this calculation/test and how does it benefit my client?"  It is no surprise that the problem solving skills for engineering make the jump to business easy.  It should be no surprise that design is very much an art.  Civil engineering has several unique disciplines and all rely on the humanities at some point (otherwise we might as well be called scientists or mathematicians).  I would never classify it as narrow in its field of study.  It's not like engineering majors don't have electives, either.

    ------------------------------
    Chad Morrison P.E., M.ASCE
    Professional Engineer
    Greenville RI
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

    Posted 07-18-2017 12:54 PM
    I have to disagree with you here, Chad. As a long time member and supporter of the Concrete Canoe team, I think that the design teams, ASCE Regional Student Competitions, and National Competitions are one of the main areas that ASCE gives students the ability to learn these 4 main "gaps" of leadership, teamwork, communications, and business knowledge. These design teams intertwine with and typically supplement course work. Students take nearly an entire academic year to: create and implement a schedule and budget, develop a working team, and build and present a final product. This takes leadership skills, or the desire to learn them, as well as a teamwork environment, a business mindset, and active communication in order to have a successful team. My advice to any current student that believes their education is lacking in areas of leadership, teamwork, communications, and business knowledge is to 100% get involved in a design team. Although I do agree that undergraduate coursework currently lacks in these areas, I believe joining a design team or furthering education to a master's degree can be of use to create a more well rounded engineer.

    ------------------------------
    Danielle Kennedy EI, S.M.ASCE
    Graduate Research Student
    University of Florida

    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

    Posted 07-18-2017 04:03 PM
    Actually, I agree, the concrete canoe competition does promote these skills.  Perhaps the findings from the ASCE Education Conference in June 1995 are no longer valid and solved by such activities.  If the gap does remain for business skills (which we all agree there is one in curriculum), the best approach is through extracurricular activities.  If the current activities develop the required skills outside of coursework, then no change is needed.

    ------------------------------
    Chad Morrison P.E., M.ASCE
    Professional Engineer
    Greenville RI
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

    Posted 07-13-2017 10:26 AM
    Hello and respect
    I live in <g class="gr_ gr_6 gr-alert gr_gramm gr_inline_cards gr_run_anim Punctuation only-del replaceWithoutSep" id="6" data-gr-id="6">Iran,</g> if you would like to do a joint research in this regard.
    Thanks & Regards

    ------------------------------
    Mohammadreza Arabi Noghondar S.M.ASCE
    Mashhad
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

    Posted 07-13-2017 11:01 AM
    I agree with the gaps and also with the fact that nothing significant has been done to incorporate the topics in Covil Engineering education.
    My story is one of struggles in terms of realizing my educational dreams and satisfying my keen interest in structural design.
    I happened to be born too early in a country where CE degree course was introduced in 1978 only. I had done diploma in ce in 1965. The then degree holders had to study in India or abroad. I had a burning desire but no resources and my father as a farmer could not afford or dream. 
    I started my job as an overseer in buildings dept. and tried everything I could to gain knowledge and experience in the profession. To gain insight into practical structural design I had purchased the most popular hand book PN Kanna's.
    The first design I had done was of a lintel on 6' wide windows supporting 18'' thick stone wall for a mission hospital in Pokhara, west nepal.
    in 1978 however I was fortunately selected in the first batch of the degree course, but this time my father was no more and family's burden was on my own shoulders! 
    To make a long story short, I was unable to complete the course and continued my job at local sugar factory, learning the design of machine foundations, deep foundations including piling. I also had refined my skills in buildings design, also architectural.
    On the basis of experience I got admission in MSc Project Management at the world reknowned University of Aberdeen in 2007 and finished in 2010, totally online. Thanks to internet! (But my degree is not recognized by equivalency dept!)
    i learnt the leadership skills by practice, donot have buisness skills at all and still struggling at the age of 71 for survival (in order to get sufficient projects)!

    ------------------------------
    Peter Singh M.ASCE
    Managing Director
    Kingdom Designers
    Birganj
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

    Posted 07-14-2017 11:03 AM
    ​Like most undergraduates, I came out of engineering school knowing a lot about math and science but next to nothing about marketing or business or proposals or contracts. Some thirty years later I got the opportunity to serve as Adjunct Faculty at Northern Virginia Community College and teach a class on what I describe as the "dark side" of the business. For 16 weeks students get the benefit of some four decades of warfare in the claims/contracts/insurance/bonds trenches (I'm a PE in Virginia and an Attorney in Missouri and Virginia). I'm aware of colleagues who teach similar classes at George Mason University and the University of Maryland. At one time I believe there was a similar class at Georgetown University but I'm not sure if they still offer it. And finding a text/materials to teach from can be tricky, especially given the wide range of background and experience found among students today. But a long time ago I came to the conclusion that engineering education programs would be well served to offer some sort of class or training on the business of engineering and construction. I'm talking the proverbial miles wide and inches deep sort of exposure to terms and concepts that are integral to the ongoing operation of a business in the engineering and construction sector. Anyone who wants more, go for an MBA or a combined undergraduate in engineering and finance and accounting (if such a thing is even available). But I think it is a disservice to do a fine job of sending students into the world well prepared for the EIT and PE but lacking even a rudimentary understanding of the business of engineering and construction.

    ------------------------------
    David Vanaman P.E., M.ASCE
    Assistant General Counsel
    WSP USA Inc
    Herndon VA
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

    Posted 07-17-2017 11:17 AM
    I agree with you, David, and find that there is a similar failure to educate civil engineering students about the subject of existing utilities, utility coordination and damage prevention. Our new institute, UESI, is starting to do something about these issues. Perhaps another institute is an option ...

    ------------------------------
    [Al] [Field] Aff.M.ASCE
    [President]
    [Al Field & Associates]
    [Phoenix] [AZ]
    [602-616-3618]
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

    Posted 07-17-2017 12:08 PM
    The South Dakota School of Mines and Technology offers a Master's in Construction Engineering and Management which has required classes in Construction Contracts and Construction Company Management. Although the program is geared towards construction, the material taught is designed to be applicable to design firms as well. 

    I have taken both of these classes and found them very pertinent in explaining the "dark side" of engineering.  Both of these classes are currently taught by a professor who is a PE and an attorney.

    ------------------------------
    Michael Yeosock P.E., D.WRE, M.ASCE
    Assistant Principal Engineer
    City of Norwalk, Connecticut

    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

    Posted 07-17-2017 12:08 PM
    David, 

    I can appreciate the dilemma, and glad to see you sharing in this forum. You have done much for the advancement of the profession! . 

    In Arizona we have addressed the need for training in business and practice management skills through the local ACEC member organization. In 1999 we created a leadership training program for PE's moving into managerial roles in their firms. Employers sponsored their candidates in the program after the engineer had acquired 4-5 years experience since leaving school. 

    This leadership program has evolved to a curriculum that today offers 9 day-long interactive training sessions in these subjects: 
    • Self-assessment of personality traits and skills (based on MMPI model)
    • Coaching on leadership skills
    • Communications skills -- both written and oral
    • Engagement in consultant organizations, political engagement, and value creation
    • Project scoping, planning, and control
    • Managing business risk in contracts, construction phase, and professional ethics
    • Winning proposals and selling consulting engineering services
    • Human resource management issues and persuasive presentations (two unrelated topics)
    • Project presentations (culmination of the skills learned through the program)
    The program is well-regarded by consulting engineering firms and our graduates have been quite successful, both for original sponsors and for the new engineering firms they often start after learning how to run the business. 

    University engineering programs could offer similar programs by partnering with their alumni and professional organizations like ASCE and ACEC to recruit adjunct faculty. Unfortunately, it doesn't happen in the US as often as it should, either because the curriculum is already filled with courses required for graduation or the exams, or because tenured academics resist the use of adjuncts for the "business of engineering". These hurdles are probably the hardest to overcome. But, once they are, educators will find there are many who could teach them how to teach others the business side of the profession.

    ------------------------------
    P. Douglas Folk, Attorney, A.M.ASCE
    MEMBER
    Clark Hill PLC
    Scottsdale AZ
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

    Posted 07-17-2017 11:10 AM

    As a recent graduate with a BS in civil engineering (2014) and soon to have my MCE (August, 2017) I felt compelled to weigh in on this discussion.

    To answer the questions raised requires a question in response, Are these four areas effectively teachable in a collegiate environment? To which my response is mostly no.

    Leadership and teamwork are skills learned through experience. One cannot be expected to comprehend and effectively navigate interpersonal matters prior to engaging in interpersonal exchanges.

    Business knowledge is another item I would argue is not suitable for a collegiate environment, different companies function in vastly different ways based on their size and organization. Taking this into account would it not be better for the employer to impart this knowledge on the individual?

    Communication is perhaps the only item that I would argue that is suitable and is by and large the largest gap area for the CE profession. It would appear, from my firsthand experience, that recent graduates are lacking in public speaking and laymen speaking abilities. These skills are often imperative for communicating with non-technical clients and with the public at large. These skills, to my knowledge having spoken to peers from half a dozen schools, are not taught in an engineering curriculum.   



    ------------------------------
    Michael Fury EIT, A.M.ASCE
    Traffic/ITS Specialist
    Gannett Fleming, Inc
    Tampa FL
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

    Posted 07-18-2017 04:00 PM
    ​I would like to add my two cents to the discussion.

    I would offer that these gaps for the most part are the responsibility of the professional engineer in mentoring the EITs in their charge.  While the school environment provides a great base from which to launch a career, many of the aspects of what is being discussed are very contextual.  If we as professional engineers mentor properly, these skills will be learned during the training period.  After all, isn't that what the time to obtain experience is for?


    ------------------------------
    Gregory Stedfield P.E.
    Senior Project Manager
    Michael Baker International
    Reno, NV
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

    Posted 07-17-2017 11:17 AM
    I am semi-retired, taking early retirement 6 years ago. I had several management positions including Director of Engineering, Dir. of Construction management, Dir. of Transporation and capital improvement project manager.  I had the opportunity to hire and fire and well as do the administrative end of the business. I saw several things and took what actions I could to address the ones I could. I got an MS in Engineering Management which is a combined Engineering  and Business degree course. I gave me the back fundamentals to speak with lawyers, accountants, human resources people, financial people and other non-technical managers.  I was way ahead of the game compared to other engineers who could not communicate. Which leads me to my next concern: Poor communication skills. Engineering schools are great at teaching equations and problem solving as well as analysis. But in your professional career, chances are, especially if you are in the civil end of things, you will need to speak to non-engineers and non-technical people. The young engineers coming out of school could not do that. In the public sector, an engineer needs to speak to the public and answer questions posed by non technical people. The house wife whose yard you are taking for a road widening, the downstream home owners who are experiencing flooding, the businesss owner who will lose business because of your project possible blocking access to his store. I have seen engineers who only quote specs and statistics and cannot reach the questioning person. Communication is utmost in this world now. Look at social media, phones, and computers. It is all about communication. Plus, there is a need for people skills. Too many young engineers hide behind email. They do business over the computer. They dehumanize the process of communication and in the end make enemies of the people they are trying to reach. How can you tell if a supplier or contractor is lying to you when you cannot read the body language? And you can't do that over the phone or the computer.
    Engineering schools need to emphasize not only problem solving and equations, but how to tapply your analysis to the real world and communicate to your audience. Too many coming out of school cannot do this.  Need some sort of basic course that teaches the real world needs. Engineering management is good for many, but even a few courses in a regular civil, mechanical, electrical, etc degree would be an improvement.  I always felt, and maybe because of my interest, that engineers should be sent out on a construction project early in their career to see who things fit together. There are millions of non engineering superintendents who can teach a young engineer how things fit together and why things  sometimes do not work as well as on paper. with some experience like that under their belts, they tend to make good, wiser engineers later on in their career. Plus learn how to get along with others in a team environment  to solve a project problem. Too many young engineers develop a "I'm smarter than the non engineer", which only makes them hated by the non engineering crown.  Which leads them to a poor career path.

    ------------------------------
    Michael Yerion P.E., M.ASCE
    Owner
    Yerion & Associates, LLC
    Ofallon MO
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

    Posted 07-17-2017 01:14 PM
    ​I'm very pleased to read the contributions to the topic discussed in this thread, and I think there is a great deal of good information here.  Specifically, Robert makes a strong, succinct point about pay and raise the bar.  Many in this thread are offering the solution of additional education (including MBAs or additional courses generally), but without a reasonable hope for an increase in compensation, I don't see additional degrees as a viable solution.  I am highly skeptical that achieving or even requiring such additional education will cause an increase in the compensation received by engineers nor do I expect it increase the prestige of the profession on its own.  With that being the case, I can't recommend it as a path forward to fixing education gaps in the profession generally, though it may be a worthwhile option for individual engineers who have the ability and desire to pursue such goals.

    I also agree with others in the thread that have commented that the "skills" where gaps have been identified are notoriously tricky to develop.  Leadership, communication skills, business acumen/vision are dependent on experience, personality, and so many more intangible features of a person.  The current state of the average MBA program, even when filled primarily with liberal arts majors or business/marketing majors, shows a trend towards a mechanical and managerial style of business philosophy.  This is no small wonder considering it is much more practical to teach business as a series of metrics and analytics to be studied and controlled rather than a sort of living being made up of individual talent interacting with other organisms of the same.  With all that in mind, I don't think that classes on business or management will help fill the gaps that are described.

    Not being one to nay-say without giving some opinion of a potential positive solution, I think the best way that I see going forward is to invest in mentoring, well-rounded education (including arts, philosophy, and literature for instance), and wide range of opportunities to meet new people and experience new things.  Some people mention replacing concrete canoe and other such activities with more business orientated activities.  I think this is a mistake as those activities offer a great opportunity for personal growth, development of project management skills, and interpersonal relationship skills.  My proposed solution will require that engineers make time to mentor and invest in their younger colleagues, personally and professionally, to develop a healthy person and engineer.  They will need to take personal responsibility for sharing their knowledge, advice, and attention, and giving those engineers opportunities to do challenging tasks that push their comfort zones and allow them to make human mistakes and learn from them.  This is a conscious effort and duty for engineers rather than allowing them to demand from afar that students spend more on their education so that they come into the workforce ready made with no investment needed, which is a pipe dream and a cruelty.

    ------------------------------
    Eleanor Huggins P.E., M.ASCE
    Geotechnical Professional
    Birmingham AL
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

    Posted 07-18-2017 09:33 AM
    Hello everyone,

    I graduated in 2014 with a BSc. in Civil & Environmental Engineering and now that I have worked almost 3 years in the Construction industry I can clearly identify the gaps in my undergrad program:
    1. The importance of Project Control/Administration on a construction project
    2. The practical application of different communication styles in order to influence people/parties involved in a project
    3. An in depth analysis of the different types of contracts in preparation for claims management
    4. Broader application of different codes and standards

    I was forced to research and develop my skills in these areas in order to be a more valuable member of the team. I think it is critical for young engineers like myself to continuously expand our knowledge base since everyday the environment is changing and no two projects are the same.

    ------------------------------
    Leariza Jaisrie S.M.ASCE
    Civil Engineer
    VAMED Engineering GmbH
    Trinidad & Tobago
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

    Posted 07-18-2017 09:32 AM
    The "gaps" in our education -- Leadership, Teamwork, Communication, Business Knowledge" (Jim Poirot, whom in 1995 I knew well, when I worked for ASCE for 10 years back then) -- are ALL business (really "Organizational Behavior") related.  Why???  Because "we" (civil engineers) have to others (incl., lawyers, entrepreneurs, civic leaders, etc.), as well, to advance beyond the "civil engineering"-realms.  When we speak to ourselves, these "gaps" don't exist, but to move beyond ourselves, they do.  If I could add one more Organizational Behavior topics to Leadership, Teamwork, Communication, Business Knowledge, which are what's missing, it would be:  "Motivation."  Are "we" motivated enough to advance ourselves???

    ------------------------------
    George De Feis Ph.D., EIT, A.M.ASCE
    Professor
    Consult-Ed International Inc
    New Rochelle, NY
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

    Posted 07-18-2017 12:54 PM
    Although I agree on the gaps, I think fundamentally that Leadership, Teamwork, and Business Knowledge are part of the work experience and professional interest of the person. What is critical to growth is leadership, teamwork and attitude to tackle problems. That should be imparted in the university? It is possible as an extension course, but will it really be of interest and useful to the students. I believe after years of experience of seeing and training professionals in the company, which is more advantageous when young engineers have already professional experience, probably 2 years at least, when they have already seen and lived as they work in a company. Unless someone wants to start their company from a young age and has a real need and motivation, they will also want to have an interest in the administration.
    I have also noticed that depending on school education, some qualities have already been developed. This is because school curricula now drive more debate, something that was not seen at least in the schools of my country a few years ago. This helps to the young person to reduce the 4th gap mentioned; the communications, oral and written. Nevertheless in the university, unless it is a program of letters and humanities, that development is not encouraged.

    ------------------------------
    Robinson Ucanan C.Eng, M.ASCE
    Technical Director GMI SA Ingenieros Consultores
    Lima
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

    Posted 07-20-2017 03:26 PM
    I agree with Robinson's view that these gaps may be better addressed within a professional setting. Perhaps, what we have not defined is the minimum amount of knowledge necessary in these critical areas prior to graduation to enable graduates pick up once they hit the job market. I graduated from a 4-year M. Eng degree program in England 30 years ago. It was a major shift from the traditional 3-year program and it was argued that the extra year was aimed at training graduates who will be better prepared for industry. Interestingly, none of the additional coursework covered included any of the gaps we're discussing today. When I moved to the states and joined a local consulting firm, I immediately realized that my writing skills were more "technical" than "business." I was encouraged to take a business or professional writing class at NYU. It soon became clear to me that working in a highly litigious environment, a technical background was not good enough for business. I am glad I took the course. Over the course of several years, I obtained an MBA and PMP certification. These degrees or certification provided a good foundation in communication, business, leadership, etc. As I moved up the management ladder, I began to see the relevance of teamwork, leadership, and budgets, and how they can really impact the bottom line. In a nutshell, at my current company, these key business skills are provided in a number of ways. Besides offering tuition reimbursements for higher degrees in organizational management, law, finance, engineering etc., a PMI-certified vendor has been providing PMP-level courses to management employees for the past decade or so and graduates are highly encouraged to seek PMP certification upon completion. We also have in-house "management challenge" training programs at three levels that address various aspects of leadership supplemented by courses offered by the American Management Association. As part of the company's principle of "The Way We Work" business model, we incorporate team work, planning the work and working the plan, open communication, seeking and accepting responsibility, continuous improvement in the execution of all projects and programs. The key is how they all tie into the company's business model. Entry level employees or Gold associates are initiated early to help them build their professional careers and seamlessly transition into management positions. I have benefited immensely from this model by filling the knowledge gaps under discussion.​

    ------------------------------
    Martin Mungwa P.E., M.ASCE
    Engineering Manager
    Consolidated Edison Company of New York
    New York NY
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

    Posted 07-19-2017 10:03 AM

    I have to agree with the business knowledge aspect. I have long lamented that we did not have coursework on contracts and budgeting. Additionally, some knowledge on how to research laws, codes and specifications should be covered as part of the undergrad program.



    ------------------------------
    LJ Hansen P.E., M.ASCE
    Assistant Director
    City of Suffolk, Dept of Public Works
    Suffolk VA
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

    Posted 07-26-2017 01:37 PM

    Selected Partial Responses as of July 21, 2017:

     

    • require an MBA 
    • requiring a Master's Degree
    • get involved in a design team
    • the best approach is through extracurricular activities
    • nothing significant has been done to incorporate the topics in Civil Engineering education
    • I think it is a disservice to do a fine job of sending students into the world well prepared for the EIT and PE but lacking even a rudimentary understanding of the business of engineering and construction.
    • has required classes in Construction Contracts and Construction Company Management. Although the program is geared towards construction, the material taught is designed to be applicable to design firms as well. I have taken both of these classes and found them very pertinent in explaining the "dark side" of engineering.  
    • In Arizona, we have addressed the need for training in business and practice management skills through the local ACEC member organization. 
    • To answer the questions raised requires a question in response, "Are these four areas effectively teachable in a collegiate environment?" To which my response is mostly "no."
    • I would offer that these gaps for the most part are the responsibility of the professional engineer in mentoring the EITs in their charge.
    • Engineering schools need to emphasize not only problem solving and equations, but how to apply your analysis to the real world and communicate to your audience. Too many coming out of school cannot do this.
    • I am highly skeptical that achieving or even requiring such additional education will cause an increase in the compensation received by engineers, nor do I expect it (to) increase the prestige of the profession on its own.
    • can clearly identify the gaps in my undergrad program:
      (a)The importance of Project Control/Administration on a construction project.(b) the practical application of different communication styles in order to influence people/parties involved in a project.
    • If I could add one more Organizational Behavior topic to Leadership, Teamwork, Communication, & Business Knowledge, which are what's missing, it would be:  "Motivation."  Are "we" motivated enough to advance ourselves???
    • Nevertheless, in the university, unless it is a program of letters and humanities, that development is not encouraged.
    • As part of the company's principle of "The Way We Work" business model, we incorporate team work, planning the work, and working the plan, open communication, seeking and accepting responsibility, continuous improvement in the execution of all projects and programs. The key is how they all tie into the company's business model
    • I have long lamented that we did not have coursework on contracts and budgeting. Additionally, some knowledge on how to research laws, codes and specifications should be covered as part of the undergrad program.

      

    Cool Hand Luke [1]

     

    0:40

     

     

         "What we have here, is a failure to communicate!"

    [1] Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fuDDqU6n4o downloaded 21JUL2017



    ------------------------------
    William Hayden Ph.D., P.E., CP, F.ASCE
    Management Quality By Design, Inc.
    Amherst NY
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

    Posted 07-26-2017 01:38 PM
    A colleague writes:
    "I was wondering if you have considered the training available via E.I.T. programs, conference technical presentations, etc., or are you referring specifically to academics? I see your title says "Formal Education", but ACEC, APWA, ASCE, ASHE and others offer, not only conferences where current topics are discussed, but also professionals that are available to enter the classroom to present various topics from the "real" world."

    Very good points being made.
    My original post addressed the remarks noted at the June 1995 Edu Conference in Denver, CO.

    What you, as well as some others have noted, is the post-edu opportunities available.

    What I would note is the lack of, to the best of my own knowledge today, a well-promoted organized systemic
    approach to such a professional continuing professional development process.

    For example, when one considers the reach and resources of ABET,  NSPE, ASCE, ASME, IEEE, AIA, ASEE, and the rest of the family of professional and academic societies and associations that comprise the planning, design and construction industry, might there be an opportunity for a concerted initiative to link these groups with a curriculum using online and other resources?

    Cheers.

    ------------------------------
    William Hayden Ph.D., P.E., CP, F.ASCE
    Management Quality By Design, Inc.
    Amherst NY
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

    Posted 07-26-2017 01:39 PM

    Dear Students,

     

    We are recruiting applicants for a new MS degree program in Peace Engineering starting in the fall of 2017 at Drexel University. Peace Engineering is the nation's first program dedicated to preventing and reducing violent conflict worldwide by integrating innovative technologies, approaches and policies with the studies and practices of peacebuilders. The program was built in partnership with the U.S. Institute of Peace's PeaceTech Lab, which works to bring engineers and scientists together with activists and conflict experts to develop new solutions to counter drivers of violence in communities affected by conflict. The M.S. program will cultivate a new skillset for engineering students by combining disciplines from engineering, the social dimensions of conflict, and the applied sciences through coursework, experiential learning internships, case studies with peacebuilders and an integrative seminar series. 

     

    Further information is available here:

    https://vimeo.com/syntropystudio/review/202458378/0733b3d959

    How to apply: http://drexel.edu/engineering/areas-of-study/peace-engineering/

     

    Financial aid is available. Contact peace@... with questions. Please encourage interested engineers/scientists to apply!



    ------------------------------
    Charles Haas Ph.D., F.ASCE
    LD Betz Professor of Environ. Eng. & Department Head - Civil, Architectural and Environmental Eng.
    Drexel University
    Philadelphia PA
    ------------------------------


    ------------------------------
    William Hayden Ph.D., P.E., CP, F.ASCE
    Management Quality By Design, Inc.
    Amherst NY
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

    Posted 07-26-2017 01:39 PM
    In retrospect, I am glad that my CE education prepared us to be generalists, knowing that we would learn the rest on the job. However, the curriculum had some faults- namely 13 hours of surveying (whew!) and thermodynamics and basic electrical engineering- included because the EIT exam covered these topics.

    However, I think that all of us, regardless of what field (and there are many of these- some very specialized and unusual) we have chosen, should ask ourselves these questions about the future of civil engineering education:

    ADDING A FIFTH YEAR OF STUDY: There are several factors here- including the spiraling cost of higher education, the reduction of credit hours required for graduation (I needed 144), and a perceived need to keep up with architects or Canadians. Does a fifth year, except for certain areas, enhance our ability to perform well in our chosen field? Are there other ways of gaining business, communication, and other workplace skills? Is this self-interest from academia and the hard-working BOK3TC Committee? Will community colleges become a major source for the first two years of study? 

    ADVANCED DEGREES:  Will a fifth year reduce the need for many Master's degrees in engineering? Will a Master's in engineering really advance the career (except for resume' enhancement) for most Civil Engineers? Is a MBA really the best way to gain business skills for our type of work or is it too general and expensive? Should an MBA or other type of learning be best for the recent graduate, or should this knowledge wait until the engineer's career path and needs are determined by his or her experiences?

    PROFESSIONAL ENGINEERING LICENSES: Is the PE in reality more about the ethics, responsibility, and legality of engineering rather than an indication of professional competence? With the higher degree of specialization in today's world, will specialty certification become the future measure of competence? Will community colleges be the best method to offer this training and certification through short courses  and seminars?






    ------------------------------
    James Worrell
    Mostly Retired
    PE, RLS (retired)
    Raleigh NC
    [jimworrell@...]
    ------------------------------



  • 30.  RE: Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

    Posted 07-28-2017 03:06 PM

    The new age of engineering and construction technology:

    How are we preparing our students to enter?

    The new age of engineering and construction technology

    By Jose Luis Blanco, Andrew Mullin, Kaustubh Pandya, and Mukund Sridhar

     

    New technologies are transforming all stages of the engineering and construction process. Here's what companies need to know about the evolving landscape.

    The engineering and construction (E&C) industry is at the cusp of a new era, with technology start-ups creating new applications and tools that are changing how companies design, plan, and execute projects. By providing advanced software, construction-focused hardware, and analytics capabilities, these innovative start-ups are eliminating many of the problems that have dogged the E&C sector for decades, including difficulties compiling and sharing project information. Such improvements could not come at a better time, since construction projects are becoming increasingly complex and expensive, putting managers under greater pressure to improve costs, timelines, and efficiency.

    The technological transformation at engineering and construction firms 

    Construction-technology start-ups have garnered $10 billion in investment funding from 2011 through early 2017. To gain a more detailed view of this strong market and its evolution, we first identified all tools and solutions that construction technology start-ups have developed. We then determined how each tool addressed or eliminated problems throughout the course of E&C projects-looking at both the phase in which they are used and the particular problem they solve (Exhibit 1).

                       N.B.  'Click' in the center of the solid blocks below to locate the link to the complete article.

    Check it out at:

    http://www.mckinsey.com/industries/capital-projects-and-infrastructure/our-insights/the-new-age-of-engineering-and-construction-technology?cid=other-eml-alt-mip-mck-oth-1707&hlkid=20824e296a7d4007be3119285024f747&hctky=2387066&hdpid=4877b763-1177-46ed-92f3-8c8285e94520

    Check it out at:

    http://www.mckinsey.com/industries/capital-projects-and-infrastructure/our-insights/the-new-age-of-engineering-and-construction-technology?cid=other-eml-alt-mip-mck-oth-1707&hlkid=20824e296a7d4007be3119285024f747&hctky=2387066&hdpid=4877b763-1177-46ed-92f3-8c8285e94520

     

     

     

     



    ------------------------------
    William Hayden Ph.D., P.E., CP, F.ASCE
    Adjunct Asst. Professor
    Management Quality By Design, Inc.
    Amherst NY
    ------------------------------



  • 31.  RE: Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

    Posted 08-29-2017 12:21 PM
    ​There are a lot of good points made by many in this discussion.  I think an important factor is evaluating the most effective way to impart the skills and attitudes needed to succeed and advance our profession.  We often tend to think in terms of courses and workshops and such, but the skills and attitudes are really developed through practice, and it need not be specific to engineering.  I learned leadership in school by managing the Civil Engineering Department softball team.  We need to consider generating an atmosphere surrounding education that is not a one way street with students passively absorbing information, but taking action and exploring their capabilities. 

    Having three college age children, I see the recruiting efforts of universities focused on the wonderful atmosphere, beauty of campus, fancy facilities, and what looks to me like a spoon fed approach to learning and promises that they will get a top quality education.  I am generalizing, but this is not a minor trend.  Combine this with the attitude of many engineering companies that they provide commodity services at low prices; an approach that does not tend to challenge or stimulate young minds, but expects performance and throughput, stifling creativity, and you can see why top talent wants to go elsewhere.  We use technology to reduce staff and reduce interaction and support among our staff members.  We make our work places into virtual sweatshops without administrative support.  This could not be in greater contrast to what universities offer incoming students.

    It is not just about preparing students to enter the workforce, but about preparing the workforce for entering engineers.  It is not about raising the bar for education, but about raising the bar on performance of our profession.  We need to focus on doing what's appropriate and not what's cheap.   You don't see doctors getting their price down by leaving out parts of the work, but engineers do this all the time.  Unfortunately, in the current practice of engineering there is always someone who will do less for less. How can we convince our clients to pay the cost for increased salaries if we do not value our own work?  If we cannot agree on what is the standard and do not enforce this among ourselves, how can we encourage young professionals to enter our profession and prepare properly?

    ------------------------------
    Michael Byle P.E., D.GE, F.ASCE
    Tetra Tech Inc.,
    Langhorne PA
    ------------------------------



  • 32.  RE: Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

    Posted 08-28-2017 11:21 AM
     Q1. What changes have been observed in the professional lives of our CE graduates
                            relative to any one or more of the four identified main "Gaps" identified by educational
                            and professional CE experts over two decades ago?

     Q2. What CE academic programs have developed incorporating parts of the above noted 4 recommended topics?

    I am glad to see these questions raised and the resulting conversation.  Much of the recent literature I have read and the conversations I have had with practicing engineers confirm these gaps still exist. Even examining publications on future attributes needed for engineers generally and civil engineers particularly include these gaps/attributes and others like business and management skills and creativity.  I believe CE academic programs have revised curriculum in order to improve learning outcomes on these gaps/attributes. I particularly think of the rise in leadership programs and widespread use of teams in courses throughout the curriculum in civil engineering.  These changes perhaps have made modest impacts on addressing these gaps/attributes, but the gaps persist. It is then left to the graduates/practicing engineers and the companies that employ them to fill these gaps.  This is certainly one option and tied to the desire to have practicing engineers commit to life long learning.

    These questions relate to those I seek to answer through my research projects. I agree with many of the posters in this discussion thread who point to the value of out-of -class activities that contribute to the development of these attributes.  My research supports this.  So, one solution is to encourage civil engineering students to join out-of-class activities - even when it seems they have no time for such activities. The learning benefits are worth the time commitment. NOTE: My research found that women in engineering participate mostly in living learning communities (manuscript under review) and gain many professional outcomes.  

    I am particularly intrigued by the professor who stood and asked the following question:

    "Who will first teach us? We never received education on these subjects ourselves. How then do we teach them to our students?" To which no one responded.

    When faculty were asked the level of importance (on a scale of 0-100) they thought industry placed on several competencies, leadership was near the bottom (rated in the group of competencies faculty judged to be at the lowest level of importance). This is a recent finding and the manuscript is under development. Based on this result and related to the question "who will first teach us?", I am preparing a proposal to investigate how to teach leadership in civil engineering using modern theories.  [In a review of the literature, I found that engineering faculty are using older leadership models and theories to teach leadership.]

    I am on a quest to inform practices that will help close these gaps in teaching and learning in civil engineering and construction. Thanks for starting this thread.

    Denise




    ------------------------------
    Denise R. Simmons Ph.D., P.E., PMP, LEED AP, M.ASCE
    Assistant Professor,
    MLSoC and Dept of Civl & Envr. Engineering
    Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
    Blacksburg VA
    www.denisersimmons.cee.vt.edu
    ------------------------------



  • 33.  RE: Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

    Posted 08-30-2017 12:49 PM
    ​This is a very interesting discussion.  Here is a question for consideration.  Are we depending on Formal Education too much to meet the needs our training needs?  I hate to think of this but I graduated from Undergrad 38 years ago with a structural major.  While a number of technical subjects are still valuable it is the discipline and drive to learn new subjects that have been of the best value to me.  I believe that while formal education is important it is the continuing education that shapes the best engineers.

    ------------------------------
    David Thompson P.E., M.ASCE
    Principal
    KTA Structural Engineers Ltd.
    Calgary AB
    ------------------------------



  • 34.  RE: Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

    Posted 08-30-2017 12:49 PM
    Institutions can only go so far.  We have a personal, professional responsibility to share what has been shared with us to those who will listen.  Fear of "training your replacement" is usually not warranted, because others will recognize the contributions you've made.  

    My degree required 152 hours when I began college, but changes (albeit too late for me to take advantage of) to the curriculum had the degree down to 132 by the time I graduated (with 165 hours and a minor in Literature).  Many of the reductions were effective and efficient, some reduced the breadth/depth of technical education, however.  Regarding the gaps, the University fully supported and encouraged design competitions, student organizations, etc. and structured many of their classes to force teamwork to happen. 

    When I started in the workforce after graduation, I was fortunate to have supervisors and other senior engineers invest in my own technical knowledge, but more importantly, encourage and support my involvement in ASCE (for other young engineers, it may have been another professional society or civic organization).  They challenged me to take on a leadership role early on, because THEY knew the value that experience would bring to the company in the future.  In my 14 years after graduation, I've been able to mentor and supervise a number of young engineers in similar fashion, and the #1 contributor to whether those engineers are "GREAT!" or simply "adequate", rests with the individual.  They have to WANT to learn, to grow, to be challenged, and to be involved.

    So 2 points (at a penny apiece, you can call it my 2 cents):

    1. If we want to raise the bar, the public has to know a civil engineer.  Not just the value civil engineers bring to public welfare, but the value a civil engineer brings to the intangible parts of their community.  Are we known as a profession that is dedicated to our communities, or are we known as a profession of awkward pocket-protector introverts?  ASCE and universities can only do so much in this regard...a publication or production isn't nearly effective as a personal interaction.  So we, as Civil Engineers, need to get involved with our communities so that even if they don't understand the complexities of something like an infrastructure bond issue, they know and trust a Civil Engineer who says it's something their community needs.  Get involved outside the walls of your home and work.

    2.  We have to help others reach the bar we want to set.  I'm reminded of those wall climb obstacle courses you see in Tough Mudder races.  it takes a few people pushing from below, a person pulling from the top, and someone willing to reach out their arms in order to raise the collective to the top.  That's our personal, professional responsibility.  Our universities and our professional societies can provide us tools to make the incline flatter or the starting elevation a little higher, but there will always be a need for peer support, from alongside, from within, and from above.  Get involved in the professional lives of others.

    ------------------------------
    Kensey Russell P.E., M.ASCE
    HNTB
    Oklahoma City OK
    ------------------------------



  • 35.  RE: Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

    Posted 08-30-2017 04:27 PM

    I am not surprised that the engineering education gaps identified in 1995 (posted by Prof Hayden) still persist, and by the response of the professor saying that how can something be taught if the teachers don't know or understand the topic. Although some schools seem to be offering engineering leadership courses (please see the responses to my Engineering Leadership pieces on Public Policy and EWRI/COPRI pages). It seems to me the rationale behind identifying the gaps like leadership, teamwork, communications and business knowledge as something needed for engineering curricula is not very clear. Of course, such exposures are good to have, but these (like being a better leader, a better communicator and team player, or a better business person) are also something that depends on an individual's personality or being savvy in such areas. In fact, such gaps exist in every discipline; perhaps because of the realization that these are something one learns during professional work or through dedicated professional courses or by self-educating oneself. And there are many free websites offering materials in these fields.

    In my judgment, engineering students should be exposed to some basic liberal arts course like economics, political and social sciences, with the care that these courses do not overwhelm them to jeopardize their technical pursuits; but at the same time help them to see things beyond a technician's lens. There may be variants in different cultures, but engineering economics only cater to cost-benefit analyses, amortization etc., without telling the wider aspects of economic basics or types of economy. The rationale behind such a suggestion is that students will learn how a society functions not only in a technical world but also in a wider societal framework of interactions. These liberal arts courses will eventually help other things to follow (like leadership and management, teamwork, communication, business knowledge etc) later in professional pursuits.

    Something of a similar nature happens in graduate (or post graduate in some countries) courses. I have found that graduate students pursuing coastal sedimentation engineering have been advised to take science courses like geology and oceanography. Such an approach really makes sense because many of our technical problems cross boundary, are interdisciplinary and require appreciation from different angles.

    ------------------------------
    Dr. Dilip Barua, Ph.D, P.Eng, M. ASCE
    Consultant - Coastal, Port and Marine Engineering
    Vancouver, Canada
    ------------------------------



  • 36.  RE: Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

    Posted 08-31-2017 12:43 PM
    I am a Life Member of ASCE. I attended Finley Engineering College in Kansas City, MO. Several of my instructors were practicing engineers with HNTB, Black & Veatch, and several other highly regarded firms. After two semesters of night school, five PE's wrote Missouri letters of recommendations for my taking the EIT exam. Oh, I had worked for a consultant for 5 years. Two graduate engineers for Major state universities went with me. One of us passed. At that time, the test was not a multiple choice test.  You either new your stuff, or you didn't. 

    At that time HNTB and Black & Veatch both pretty much had a program that a new engineer went to the field for up to 7 years before coming inside. That's where their real education came from. Not any more, and having owned both Engineering firms and Construction companies, the change orders, some in the millions, were because of lack of knowledge of what it took to design, specify, and build a project. That is reflected in todays graduating engineers, (generalization). After negotiating a large settlement with a top ten firm, I ask, "what is the world is happening". His answer, "No white hair engineers anymore".

    I have had the opportunity to provide forensic services on numerous law suites. As a rule, the opponents forensic expert had a list of degrees and papers long as your arm. Didn't have field experience.  I have repeat clients.

    The BSCE is a great degree. The problem is, the instructors lack teaching how to put the information to use. There are areas of practice that the training given in the Masters programs is vital. But, you still have to be able to know how to use what you have learned. I run into many in the environmental areas that make all type of great statements of what must be done. Having no idea how if it can economically be completed, and don't care.  

    Most of the push in the higher degree discussions is coming from those in academia and active in the associations. The publish or parish syndrome has driven many of the worthless papers presented. Having seniors and grad student teach courses is a black eye to the profession. What in the world can they offer to making better engineers.

    Well that's the opinion of a still practicing 75 year old P.E. registered in several states. 


    ------------------------------
    Robert Hinton, P.E.
    ------------------------------



  • 37.  RE: Identified Gaps in The Formal Education of Civil Engineers - Update (?)

    Posted 09-04-2017 09:13 PM


    I believe this has been a productive and insightful conversation; I have read each comment and feel much of what I have been thinking has been captured in some form.  While I cannot speak to changes I've seen over the past two decades (as I am not old enough), I will say much of the gap cannot and will not be covered in highly-technical curricula alone.  While some of the slack in gaps you see in recent graduates can be learned in a formalized setting, much more can be learned in practice.  Here are my actionable recommendations:

    a).  encourage current civil engineering curricula to partner with systems engineering and business departments to expose students to real-life case studies that involve infrastructure and have them present in a mock/simulated public meeting 
    b).  structure internships and co-ops to allow for students to work and collaborate in public hearings, meetings, and meetings with infrastructure owners    
    c).  enable engineers-in-training with civil engineering undergraduate degrees to count one year of practical, case-based experience in non-engineering graduate level study to count towards the four year requirement to sit for the Professional Engineering Exam  
    d).  push for the creation of a hybrid public-private engineering internship, shared between a public and private entity
    e).  invite alumni, particularly those that have graduated from the last 3-7 years, to speak to current students about current projects



    ------------------------------
    Michael Boone EIT, MAM, A.M.ASCE
    Transportation Engineer
    Alexandria, VA
    ------------------------------