ABET Civil Engineering Program Criteria Draft

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13. ... apply the ASCE Code of Ethics to an ethical dilemma;

  • 1.  13. ... apply the ASCE Code of Ethics to an ethical dilemma;

    Posted 04-29-2021 02:32 PM

    CURRENT CRITERIA

    PROPOSED CRITERIA

    RATIONALE FOR CHANGE

    analyze issues in professional ethics; apply the ASCE Code of Ethics to an ethical dilemma;
    • The proposed CEPC's reference to ethical dilemmas is adopted from the CEBOK3.
    • The CEPC specifies use of the ASCE Code of Ethics, because the ASCE Code is unique in its purposeful inclusion of sustainability, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Exclusive use of other codes of ethics would result in students not addressing these issues in the context of engineering ethics.  Programs' use of other codes of ethics in addition to the ASCE Code is not in any way restricted by this provision.


  • 2.  RE: 13. ... apply the ASCE Code of Ethics to an ethical dilemma;

    Posted 05-28-2021 05:20 PM

    I certainly agree that "ethics" should be included in the CE program criteria. I am becoming familiar with the new writing of the ASCE Code of Ethics, and believe that it improves the former version. However, the ASCE Code should be specified in the program criteria. While I agree that this specification does not exclude or restrict reference to or instruction in other codes, it conveys a clear impression that the ASCE Code is preferred, and perhaps that it is most important. This is not appropriate. It adds a restrictive air to these criteria that is not appropriate. 



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    John Koon, Ph.D., P.E., F. ASCE
    Professor of Practice - Georgia Institute of Technology
    John H Koon and Associates
    Atlanta GA
    [Phone]
    Ph.D., P.E.Ph.D., P.E.Ph.D., P.E.
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: 13. ... apply the ASCE Code of Ethics to an ethical dilemma;

    Posted 05-28-2021 06:09 PM
    Your point is well taken and as noted, the Criteria are not limiting.  I would suspect that many programs would include a discussion of different Codes, e.g., NSPE, AIA, and "construction", etc.

    As stated in the rationale:  The CEPC specifies use of the ASCE Code of Ethics, because the ASCE Code is unique in its purposeful inclusion of sustainability, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Exclusive use of other codes of ethics would result in students not addressing these issues in the context of engineering ethics.  Programs' use of other codes of ethics in addition to the ASCE Code is not in any way restricted by this provision.

    I think that language similar to the above will be in the Commentary to help guide PEVs and curriculum planning.

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    Jay Puckett P.E., F.ASCE
    Director
    University of Nebraska
    Omaha NE
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  • 4.  RE: 13. ... apply the ASCE Code of Ethics to an ethical dilemma;

    Posted 05-29-2021 08:19 AM
    I am not sure, but I would guess that other codes also have unique wording and characteristics that the framers of these codes feel are important. Other codes should be considered an equal basis with the ASCE code.

    The American Academy of Environmental Engineers and Scientists (AAEES) is well into the process of developing a code of ethics. Why should it not also be called out in the CE program criteria?

    ------------------------------
    John Koon, Ph.D., P.E., F. ASCE
    Professor of Practice - Georgia Institute of Technology
    John H Koon and Associates
    Atlanta GA
    [Phone]
    Ph.D., P.E.Ph.D., P.E.Ph.D., P.E.
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: 13. ... apply the ASCE Code of Ethics to an ethical dilemma;

    Posted 05-29-2021 09:50 AM
    The Program Criteria for Environmental engineering might put in others Codes as might be appropriate, or not.
    The proposed criteria do not limit the use of other Codes, or suggest how the criteria should be met.  There is a lot of flexibility with the ethics phrase as with all other statements.

    A good first assignment might be to locate all possibility applicable codes of ethics and list for future comparisons.



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    Jay Puckett P.E., F.ASCE
    Director
    University of Nebraska
    Omaha NE
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  • 6.  RE: 13. ... apply the ASCE Code of Ethics to an ethical dilemma;

    Posted 05-28-2021 10:49 PM
    I agree with the comment by Dr. Koon.

    While ASCE is the lead society for both ABET EAC and ABET ETAC, the NCEES Fundamental of Engineering examination Civil CBT Exam Specifications calls out A. Codes of ethics (professional and technical societies) under 2. Ethics and Professional Practice. While it's pure speculation, there is a chance educators will see ASCE Code of Ethics and overemphasize it in their teaching while underemphasizing or avoiding other codes. What if the FE has questions oriented towards other topics not founded on the ASCE Code of Ethics?

    While my is an ABET ETAC perspective, our curriculum does include a full course on ethics which our students take with other engineering technology majors. For any EAC program that addresses ethics criteria similarly, this could create internal institutional problems if another department controls the ethics course. Obviously some resolution would need to be achieved, but just a heads up.

    What do the other lead societies have in their ABET EAC criteria for ethics? Do they embed their organization's code too?

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    David Fedor P.E., M.S.
    Assistant Professor of Civil Engineering Technology
    Pennsylvania College of Technology
    Williamsport, PA
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  • 7.  RE: 13. ... apply the ASCE Code of Ethics to an ethical dilemma;

    Posted 05-29-2021 09:55 AM
    While my is an ABET ETAC perspective, our curriculum does include a full course on ethics which our students take with other engineering technology majors. For any EAC program that addresses ethics criteria similarly, this could create internal institutional problems if another department controls the ethics course. Obviously some resolution would need to be achieved, but just a heads up.

    A suggestion for the commentary:  This is a use-case I do not think that we thought about.  Thanks for the heads up.  For such a general course/approach, it would be even more important to bring in all applicable codes for comparison.  The ASCE Code would be one.

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    Jay Puckett P.E., F.ASCE
    Director
    University of Nebraska
    Omaha NE
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  • 8.  RE: 13. ... apply the ASCE Code of Ethics to an ethical dilemma;

    Posted 06-02-2021 11:42 AM

    Please place the issues raised in the NAS Report into the equation for ACTION!

    I believe the original NAS report was in play since 2017/18.

    I've yet to see this picked up and publicly supported… OUTLOUD!

    Stay Healthy!

    Cheers, 

    Bill

    <>===================================<>

    THIS STUDY EXAMINED THE PREVALENCE AND IMPACT OF SEXUAL HARASSMENT IN ACADEMIA ON THE CAREER ADVANCEMENT OF WOMEN IN THE SCIENTIFIC, TECHNICAL, AND MEDICAL WORKFORCE. 

     









    I believe the original NAS report was in play since 2017/18.

    I've yet to see this picked up and publicly supported… OUTLOUD!

    Stay Healthy!

    Cheers,

    Bill

    <>===================================<>

    THIS STUDY EXAMINED THE PREVALENCE AND IMPACT OF SEXUAL HARASSMENT IN ACADEMIA ON THE CAREER ADVANCEMENT OF WOMEN IN THE SCIENTIFIC, TECHNICAL, AND MEDICAL WORKFORCE. 

     



    ------------------------------
    William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
    Buffalo, N.Y.

    "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: 13. ... apply the ASCE Code of Ethics to an ethical dilemma;

    Posted 06-02-2021 08:57 PM
    Professor Koon,

    Regarding your point: "it conveys a clear impression that the ASCE Code is preferred" -- yes, this is what the Task Committee intended.  From my perspective, it seems quite reasonable that Civil Engineering Program Criteria, which are the responsibility of ASCE--the civil engineering professional society--would specify the use of its own code of ethics.  All codes of ethics are not created equal.  In the recent update to the ASCE Code, the Society incorporated several provisions (and a major reorganization) that directly reflect ASCE's strategic priorities for the civil engineering profession.  No other professional society's code of ethics directly reflects the priorities of the CE profession.  Why would we not want to ensure that CE students are grounded in the ethical code of their chosen profession?

    You noted that AAEES is well into the process of developing a code of ethics. But AAEES has also chosen to develop and promulgate its own ABET EAC Program Criteria for environmental engineering.  Thus, in my view, it would be perfectly appropriate for them to specify the AAEES Code of Ethics in their Program Criteria.

    You noted that other professional societies' codes also have unique wording and characteristics that the framers of these codes feel are important. Absolutely true.  And, presumably, ASME's Code appropriately reflects ASME's priorities for the ethical practice of mechanical engineering.  But ASME's priorities are very different from ours.  As a CE educator, I would be negligent in my duties if I allowed a civil engineering student to graduate without a firm grounding in engineering ethics from a civil engineering perspective.

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    Stephen Ressler Ph.D., P.E., Dist.M.ASCE
    Professor Emeritus
    Bethlehem PA
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  • 10.  RE: 13. ... apply the ASCE Code of Ethics to an ethical dilemma;

    Posted 06-13-2021 03:22 PM

    13. ... APPLY THE ASCE CODE OF ETHICS TO AN ETHICAL DILEMMA;

    Given the subject matter for this specific element, I thought ISO 37001: 2016 noted below to
    provide a common and quite practical foundation for all CE students to become hands-on familiar with.

              A PRACTICAL GUIDE[1]

     Year of publication: 2021   |   Edition: 1

    An effective anti-corruption policy is a huge strength for an organization in the fight against bribery, embedding a culture of honesty, transparency and integrity at the core of its processes. Published jointly by ISO and UNIDO, this handbook helps users put in place an effective anti-bribery management system in accordance with ISO 37001:2016.

     Stay Healthy!
    Cheers,
    Bill

    [1] https://www.iso.org/publication/PUB100457.html?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ISO%20Newsletter%20June%202021&utm_content=ISO%20Newsletter%20June%202021+CID_b4300abae2da4c42b27c12aa59fbfc53&utm_source=Email%20marketing%20software&utm_term=SO%20370012016%20%20Anti-bribery%20management%20systems%20%20A%20practical%20guide



    ------------------------------
    William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
    Buffalo, N.Y.

    "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: 13. ... apply the ASCE Code of Ethics to an ethical dilemma;

    Posted 06-17-2021 06:40 PM
    Steve, you articulated exactly what I object to--the presumption that the ASCE Code of Ethics is preferred to all other ways of looking at evaluating ethical issues.  To my mind that is to prescriptive and perhaps even hubristic.  I can imagine a number of ways to include ethics which might be superior to using the ASCE Code of Ethics while not addressing everything covered in this code.  In short, I believe this is a short sited proposal and doesn't significantly improve CE curricula.

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    William Kitch Ph.D., P.E., M.ASCE
    Angelo State University
    San Angelo TX
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  • 12.  RE: 13. ... apply the ASCE Code of Ethics to an ethical dilemma;

    Posted 06-17-2021 05:48 PM
    I'd like to add my voice to those commenting about the unnecessary restrictiveness of requiring coverage of the ASCE Code of Ethics.  I have studied Codes of Ethics from a number of engineering organizations and believe ASCE's leads the way in many areas.  However, I think it's inappropriate to require adherence to this code in the program criteria.  Many programs share common courses used to cover ethics material.  In the case of Angelo State University, our ME and CE programs share courses covering both formative and summative levels of ethics content.  We work carefully to ensure the material in theses courses is not only appropriate to both disciplines but also approachable to both.  There are also ethical formulations or constructs which go well beyond the ASCE Code of Ethics without fully covering the topic as presented in the ASCE code.  In summary this proposal is both overly prescriptive and restrictive.

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    William Kitch Ph.D., P.E., M.ASCE
    Angelo State University
    San Angelo TX
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  • 13.  RE: 13. ... apply the ASCE Code of Ethics to an ethical dilemma;

    Posted 06-18-2021 08:20 AM
    Bill, thank you for elaborating on the comments that you made in chat at the June 17 NCEDHC virtual meeting session on the specification of the ASCE Code of Ethics in the proposed Civil Engineering Program Criteria.  Your comments and perspective will receive careful attention by the CEPC Task Committee.

    Dave Dzombak

    ------------------------------
    David Dzombak, PhD, PE, Dist.M.ASCE
    Hamerschlag University Professor and Dept Head
    Dept of Civil and Environmental Engineering
    Carnegie Mellon University
    Pittsburgh, PA 15213
    [email protected]
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: 13. ... apply the ASCE Code of Ethics to an ethical dilemma;

    Posted 06-18-2021 01:54 PM
    Bill,

    Again, I'd like to respond with my personal opinion here--not the position of the Task Committee.  I think your misgivings about this provision are appropriate and justified.  I've supported this provision because I think the new ASCE Code is exceptionally well done--and strongly reflects our society's strategic direction in wasy that other codes do not.  But I recognize that mandating the use of the ASCE Code is problematic in several ways.  In short, I think there's a strong case for mandating the ASCE Code, and there's a strong case for not mandating it.  Given this situation, I think it was appropriate for the Task Committee  to err on the side of inclusion--so the issue could be more broadly discussed.  That discussion is happening now, and the committee is listening carefully.

    steve

    ------------------------------
    Stephen Ressler Ph.D., P.E., Dist.M.ASCE
    Professor Emeritus
    Bethlehem PA
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: 13. ... apply the ASCE Code of Ethics to an ethical dilemma;

    Posted 06-18-2021 02:14 PM
    Steve,
       I think we are mostly in agreement.  I agree that the new ASCE Code of Conduct is far superior to others I have researched and tried to use in class recently (e.g. ASME, NSPE, Order of the Engineer). It address environmental and justice responsibilities better than any others I have read.  I does, however, come at ethics from a very traditional dominant Western European point of view.  I agree including it as mandatory is significantly problematic and would suggest that mandate be eliminated.

    WAK

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    William Kitch Ph.D., P.E., M.ASCE
    Angelo State University
    San Angelo TX
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  • 16.  RE: 13. ... apply the ASCE Code of Ethics to an ethical dilemma;

    Posted 06-18-2021 07:40 PM

    Dr. Kitch, you make a great point.  It will be discussed by the task committee.  I would like to say that the task committee had an extensive discussion related to ethics and the inclusion of the ASCE Code in the program criteria.  The discussion here will lead to further discussions.

    On a personal note, I believe that ethics is something personal that is molded not only by one's professional affiliations (each professional society I am a member of has its own code of ethics) but by our culture, upbringing, religion, life experiences, and our personal commitment to the people and world around us.  It is not something that can easily be taught but rather must be accepted and formed as one matures.  Including ethics in the civil engineering curriculum is vital and that is why it has been in the program criteria for years.

    Thank you for your comments.  Your input is appreciated and will be considered.



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    Herbert Raybourn P.E., M.ASCE
    Manager, Environmental Permitting Department
    Walt Disney World Resort
    Lake Buena Vista FL
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