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Integration of Disciplines in Engineering Education

  • 1.  Integration of Disciplines in Engineering Education

    Posted 05-15-2018 03:15 PM

    There was a topic 'Gap in Engineering Education . . .' we discussed in the Horizontal/Subsurface Infrastructure & Transportation forum. Among others, many professional engineers have felt that engineering education offered by many institutions lacks exposure to certain liberal arts courses – making them ill-equipped to the practicing world.

    Glad to see a 2018 NAP publication (https://doi.org/10.17226/24988)

    'The Integration of the Humanities and Arts with Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine in Higher Education: Branches from the Same Tree.' In several articles, experts/authors discussed the needs for an integrated education: '. . . This view holds that a broad and interwoven education is essential to the preparation of citizens for life, work, and civic participation. An educated and open mind empowers the individual to separate truth from falsehood, superstition and bias from fact, and logic from illogic.'

    This publication is a great addition to the new thinking – and I invite all to take the opportunity of looking at it and react.



    ------------------------------
    Dr. Dilip Barua, Ph.D, P.Eng, M. ASCE
    Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Website: https://widecanvas.weebly.com
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Integration of Disciplines in Engineering Education

    Posted 05-18-2018 01:46 PM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 05-18-2018 01:46 PM
    ​With higher ed costs continually matching or exceeding inflation for the past few decades coupled with many fields requiring advanced degrees, I'm not sure this will get much traction or sympathy from students or parents. It's up to individuals to broaden their horizons - which many students do on their own. 

    I'm not sure that many liberal arts classes - while possibly interesting - really contribute to a person's professional development in their chosen career (I'm thinking of my son's dance appreciation class last semester in his 7-year pharmacy program......).

    Thirty years ago we had a mandatory group of liberal arts classes which were more than enough in my opinion.  And honestly, at the time most of us felt they were mostly obligations we had to get out of the way.  It was only after I graduated and entered the real world (and started paying taxes and paying closer attention to economics, politics, and laws) that I developed an interest and appreciation for history, politics, and economics (among other things). I think it has less to do with exposure to these topics in school and more to do with growing up and maturing. I'm not sure that increasing the liberal arts load on students is beneficial, at least from a time and cost value standpoint. 


    ------------------------------
    Greg Thein, PE
    Cleveland, OH
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Integration of Disciplines in Engineering Education

    Posted 05-19-2018 10:21 AM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 05-19-2018 10:21 AM
    Over the past decade I have become very concerned for young people who think that a Bachelor of Science in Civil Engineering is all they need to become successful in civil engineering.  At the University of Texas in Austin, the requirements for a BS have been reduced to, I think, about 126 hours.  A standard liberal arts degree is 120.  The change was made to comply with a requirement that students graduate in four years or less.   Liberal arts and labs end even some engineering materials courses have been squeezed out.  I recently had to offer as an expert witness an opinion on the state of affairs, and I said something like "I was educated to be a real person.  Today, engineers are educated to only be technocrats."

    When I graduated with a BS in 1965, the requirement was around 139 to 141 hours.  I had a healthy dose of liberal arts classes (history, literature, sociology that at a large university gave me exposure to others with the same or opposed points of view.  When I got my MS, that's when I was able to put everything I had learned together which taught me logic.  With combining professional experience with life's experiences, I have been very fortunate having the start that I received.

    I don't know if other colleges of engineering have gone the way of UT.  I do know that at least one other college  has held on to 138 hours minimum.  When young people who know me as a professional, licensed engineer still in active practice ask me how to select a college, I now tell them to find one with a 138 hour minimum that includes liberal arts.   


    ------------------------------
    Thomas Melton P.E., M.ASCE
    Amstar Engineering, Inc.
    Bee Cave TX
    (512)263-3661
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Integration of Disciplines in Engineering Education

    Posted 05-20-2018 08:49 AM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 05-20-2018 08:49 AM
    I am not convinced we need so many hours of undergraduate education to be a good engineer.  The integration and education really happens during the MS degree. That said, how many undergraduate hours are enough?

    Since I graduated with my BS degree, we have probably added at least 300% new information to our understanding of engineering. So following your argument we should require more?

    It doesn't make sense. As Hardy Cross said,"The time has come in many fields to take stock. There is continuous production of analytical tools, continuous accumulation of data from tests, continuous construction of bigger and supposedly better machines and structures. But we need now to take stock of what we know, what we do not know, what we need to know and why. There must be more of this work in the future. It is difficult to do at all and very difficult to do well. The sympathetic interest of the research man and the scholar is needed. It must be done in the interest of education on the one hand and of practice on the other; it is wrong to continue indefinitely to add, add, add to the tools of knowledge, without combination or elimination."


    I would argue that we need to focus on education end not just training; and education requires use of pedagogical tools that don't necessarily require more credit hours. Four years should be enough if we combine and eliminate as Hardy Cross said.



    ------------------------------
    Dr Jonathan Barnett M.ASCE, FIEAust, FSFPE, PE
    Technical Director, RED Fire Engineers
    Prahran, VIC Australia
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Integration of Disciplines in Engineering Education

    Posted 05-20-2018 08:52 AM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 05-20-2018 08:52 AM
    In 1965, I received my BS in Civil Engineering with honors upon the completion of 8 semesters and a total of 168 semester hours, only 6 of which were in special ''post-semester'' courses.  It was brutal, accomplished only with obsessive discipline, significant scholarship aid and a generous aunt. One semester was 28 hours, by special consent of the Dean, allowing me to achieve a double minor. My social life was mostly confined to the summers.  By contrast, except for a couple of crazy faculty, grad school was a breeze.

    ------------------------------
    Robert Bullard P.E., M.ASCE
    President
    Ahimsa Technic Inc
    Ponce Inlet FL
    (386)256-3050
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Integration of Disciplines in Engineering Education

    Posted 05-20-2018 08:42 AM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 05-20-2018 08:42 AM
    I must agree with Mr. Thein.  Our profession of Civil Engineering is based on the sciences of math, physics, chemistry, etc, founded on facts not feelings.  Therefore, our basis in science can not be swayed by the whims of societal evolution.  The Cannons of our Profession require us to maintain this scientific view.  Consequently those additions to Liberal Arts training should be left to other fields of endeavor outside the disciplines of Engineering, and we will pick them up as we mature.
    Ten years of night school to earn my BSCE, with the requisite liberal arts classes, gave me sufficient time to determine the worth of "Art Appreciation" and "Sociology" to my Engineering career.

    ------------------------------
    James May P.E., M.ASCE
    Retired 2012
    Retired
    Visalia CA
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Integration of Disciplines in Engineering Education

    Posted 05-20-2018 08:45 AM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 05-20-2018 08:44 AM
    Thank you for the post.  Indeed, in many schools, pressure from state legislatures (echoing parental concerns regarding 4-year completion) has resulted in reductions in the number of credit hours for the BSCE.  This has, in part, provided the impetus for ASCE strategic initiatives such as "Raise the Bar".  In addition, the Civil Engineering Body of Knowledge (BOK) also addresses the 'complete' education of an engineer.  These concerns have also been noted by the National Academy of Engineering (NAE) in its publications "The Engineer of 2020" and "Educating the Engineer of 2020", as well as ASCE's own "Vision 2025".

    The topic of civil engineering education is foremost in the minds of many - certainly among faculty ranks, but also practitioners.  Plans are underway for a civil engineering education "summit", slated for the early June 2019 timeframe.  The last major "summit" of this nature and scope was held in Denver in 1995.  I encourage all to consider attending next year (stay tuned for details!).

    I will mention that all schools include a "general education" component, required for all undergraduate degree programs.  Similar to a previous post, my gen-ed program in 1982 was a recipe of courses which most of us sought to "get out of the way" (unfortunately).  Happily, my University just approved a new gen-ed curriculum which seeks to prepare graduates to be educated citizens, as well as preparing them for a chosen field. We will see how it goes...

    Please keep 'fighting the good fight' for engineering education - see how you can help your alma-mater and/or local university.  I have become convinced that substantive changes to current systems will be led by grass-roots efforts; thank you for highlighting the issue!!!

    ------------------------------
    Kevin Hall Ph.D., P.E., M.ASCE
    Professor
    Univ Of Arkansas
    Fayetteville AR
    (479) 575-8695
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Integration of Disciplines in Engineering Education

    Posted 05-23-2018 03:53 PM

    The comments on this topic were great. The 2018 NAP publication and the 2006 ASCE BOK2 (referred by KD Hall with supports from TJ Melton) laid the rationale very strongly for the need to include Humanities and Social Sciences in engineering education – as well generally in STEMM (science, technology, engineering, math and medicine) educations. The rationale was seen not only by the National Academies of Science and Engineering and ASCE, but also by many other countries and industry representatives. The needs were argued as a requirement for equipping the professionals better for the challenges of the 21st century – these challenges are continuously evolving in part due to the complexities of dynamic interactions between cultures, ideas and issues – and also due to new advances and developments. Scientists and engineers having the backgrounds of Humanities and Social Sciences under their belt, it was argued, would likely have better mental capacity to comprehend a problem critically, enabling them to apply better judgments to articulate an innovative but robust solution.

    On the comment on learning the materials of Humanities and Social Sciences voluntarily as one matures in professional life – it is my opinion that such efforts are needed – but cannot be considered as a replacement – or as a valid argument against inclusion of theses courses in higher education. Because life long learning is an asset anyway – of fundamentals, of technical advances, of professional issues and developments – because that is how we remain competitive and keep ourselves sharp.     

    While the above is true and needed, the issues raised by (G Thien, JR Barnett, RR Bullard and JW May) are very real. Apart from visionary objectives, how does one justify the affordability of higher costs of education resulting from the increased loads of credit hours? How would those added efforts and hours translate to remunerations in jobs? How would the market forces accommodate the added loads of education to the science and engineering services? It appears that Law and Medical practitioners have better understood the rationality of questions similar like these – than the science and engineering practitioners. So it is not surprising that efforts by some engineering institutions to include additional courses faced resistances from students, parents and communities.

    A realistic solution must address all the issues – one cannot just impose a certain requirement or STANDARD without examining the implementation hurdles as well as the consequences. Any assumption that things will adjust and accommodate by themselves somehow – is perhaps a flawed proposition (it is un-engineering to say the least!). The academies and ASCE are preparing the ground works – and although they do not have authority to impose – their materials will likely be used by others in one way or another. While laudable – but disappointing at the same time, because I have seen very little in the NAP and BOK2 documents that addressed the concerns of students and parents (although parents are not a party to this problem legally, their concerns for sons and daughters are real – and fit into the fold of family finances and well being). The NAP document cited student surveys – that conveyed mixed feelings, but the issues associated with costs, remunerations etc. seem to have been excluded from the questionnaire (or were considered not important) – the ASCE BOK2 did not touch those issues at all.

    ------------------------------
    Dr. Dilip Barua, Ph.D, P.Eng, M. ASCE
    Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Website: https://widecanvas.weebly.com
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Integration of Disciplines in Engineering Education

    Posted 05-24-2018 11:33 AM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 05-24-2018 11:32 AM
    One other issue on the topic of engineering education: it needs to become more practical.  It needs to give students the feel for what they are designing and not just spend entire class periods deriving formulas....especially in civil engineering.

    Some of my best classes were taught by adjunct professors who brought real world experience and perspectives into the classroom.  Sure, they also showed how formulas were derived, but they were especially good at demonstrating how things were actually built, and the challenges beyond the formulas and theory.

    Pick up any text book from the 1930's through the early 1960's.  Compare it to newer textbooks and the difference is striking.  Sure, design has become more sophisticated since then, but these older books did a far better job of also demonstrating the real world issues of construction and constructability, which is a major piece of the puzzle that makes the theory make sense.

    Adding more years (or more humanities) will not improve engineering education nearly as much as improving the practical emphasis in education.  One of my profs always emphasized that the art and the feel of engineering is as important as the theory.

    Greg Thein

    ------------------------------
    Greg Thein, PE
    Cleveland, OH
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  • 10.  RE: Integration of Disciplines in Engineering Education

    Posted 05-24-2018 11:46 AM
    Edited by Chad Morrison 05-24-2018 11:53 AM
    So how do you get your dose of humanities without paying for credit hours?  Personal pursuits of knowledge are hard to put down on a resume.  What books have you read lately?  What museums have you visited?  What interesting documentaries have you watched recently?  How does history and art play a role in your engineering practice?  These are topics and issues that can be discussed in a job interview.  It would likely lead to a good conversation.  How do I explain to an interviewer that I took the hard hat tour of the Hoover Dam in high school and the impact it had on my decision to become an engineer?  Or how I visited the Gateway Arch and leaned how Saarinen built it? These topics might be filed under trivia and not college level courses, but often these interests set us engineers apart from each other who all have similar technical backgrounds.  The resume is not going to tell you much about a engineers soft skills or interest in topics outside of engineering.  Firms who have trouble finding well rounded engineers may need to rethink their hiring protocol.



    ------------------------------
    Chad Morrison P.E., M.ASCE
    Professional Engineer
    Greenville RI
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Integration of Disciplines in Engineering Education

    Posted 05-25-2018 10:10 AM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 05-25-2018 10:10 AM
    Perhaps instead of asking if "liberal arts classes are relevant," we could ask "how can we incorporate the principles we are supposed to learn from liberal arts classes into engineering coursework?" I graduated just last year, but am already able to appreciate my program's strength in teaching sustainability. For each of our design classes, we were taught to consider the social, environmental, and economic components of our design, usually in the form of a term project with some sort of multi-paragraph write-up. This, in addition to rote practice problems, helped me learn technical skills and how the type of design fits into a broader perspective. 

    While survey courses such as world history or world literature are really useful for being a culturally aware and educated person, relevant in the "networking and professional development" side of Civil Engineering, more specific courses such as the oft-mocked "feminist dance theory" are less useful and and the skills one expects to gain from there can be incorporated into a CE education in a more practical way. That isn't to say they should never be taken, but with the cost of education and pressure to graduate in four years, they can be taken with a grain of salt or as a for-fun elective.

    ------------------------------
    Allison Atkinson EIT, A.M.ASCE
    Staff Civil Engineer
    LA Porte IN
    (317)682-7977
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Integration of Disciplines in Engineering Education

    Posted 05-25-2018 10:53 AM
    Ms. Atkinson makes a crucial point; for many programs throughout the years the "arts, social sciences, and humanities" requirements are - and have been -- seen as 'outside' your technical education.  This misses the point entirely.  A key component of our engineering education is to integrate your knowledge of these areas into your technical design work.  As I ask my Professional Issues course: "how can we design for...and hold paramount the safety, health, and welfare of...the public -- if we do not understand the public?"  By insisting that our design work include such considerations, we force the engineering student to reflect -- which most undergraduate students (at least ours) tend to hate, because it is not an easily definable problem with a (relatively) clear solution.

    I would encourage each practicing engineer to seek involvement with your local university engineering program, and/or alma mater - in most cases, your voice carries a lot more credibility with the majority of students than does the professor.  If we -- practitioner and educator -- are delivering the same message, e.g. the importance of the humanities and social sciences within the technical program, I believe that we can begin to affect the upcoming generation of engineers in a very positive manner.

    ------------------------------
    Kevin Hall Ph.D., P.E., M.ASCE
    Professor
    Univ Of Arkansas
    Fayetteville AR
    (479) 575-8695
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Integration of Disciplines in Engineering Education

    Posted 05-25-2018 11:20 AM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 05-25-2018 11:19 AM
    The big issue for the Engineering industry is not whether "liberal arts" are required in Engineering curricula, but rather that "liberal arts," "social skills," or "soft skills," or what we call Success Enabling SkillsTM are absolutely essential for successful Engineers in the 21st century. As technology marches forward at an exponential pace, and more and more technical tasks are automated, non-scientific humanistic skills are becoming in higher and higher demand.

    Susskind & Susskind, in their book The Future of the Professions, assert the following.

    Our main claim is that we are on the brink of a period of fundamental and irreversible change in the way that the expertise of these specialists is made available in society. Technology will be the main driver of this change. And, in the long run, we will neither need nor want professionals to work in the way that they did in the twentieth century and before. (p. 1)

    What they are referring to is professionals acquiring "practical expertise", a complex combination of formal knowledge, know-how, experience, and other skills. In other words, a balanced set of scientific and humanistic skills. The recent report from the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine refers to this as "integrated education," and goes on to state "Collaborative, critical thinking, and communication skills are valuable in an enormous range of professional domains, particularly in an era where jobs are rapidly changing. One could argue that today, more than ever, graduates need to be adaptable and lifelong learners."

    What's clear is the deep and conspicuous gap in humanistic or soft skills in today's Engineering industry. Should foundational humanistic skill be included in Engineering academic curricula? Yes, definitely. Will the integration of humanistic skills into Engineering academic curricula bridge the "practical expertise" skills gap in the Engineering industry? Absolutely not.

    Should Engineering practitioners adopt a success focused Learning and Development Orientation (LDO) and embark on a continuous lifelong journey of continuous improvement? Unequivocally yes. The bigger question is, where do Engineering practitioners look, and how can they acquire theses essential skills to further their careers and the success of Engineering industry?

    If you would like to get the answers to this question, and the keys to being a successful Engineer in the 21st century, please contact me.

    ------------------------------
    Randy Wall P.E., M.ASCE
    President
    Engineering Leadership Institute
    Bozeman MT
    (406)451-6123
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  • 14.  RE: Integration of Disciplines in Engineering Education

    Posted 08-10-2018 11:42 AM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 08-10-2018 11:42 AM
    Based on my experience, I would recommend history courses.  It's important to learn history for a variety of reasons.  However, history courses are very good at teaching reading, research, and writing skills. In particular, history exams require the student to support his or her arguments and assertions with the information learned in class and through reading assignments. This skill is essential for good scientific and technical writing.

    ------------------------------
    Christopher Day P.E., D.CE, M.ASCE
    Mott Macdonald
    Edmonds WA
    (425)977-2589
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  • 15.  RE: Integration of Disciplines in Engineering Education

    Posted 08-13-2018 10:44 AM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 08-13-2018 10:43 AM
    I'm a young engineer with around 2 years of experience and this is my take. During my college years I actually took many courses outside civil engineering including urban planning, philosophy, and law. They've expanded my perspective and allowed me to appreciate other disciplines. 

    Squeezing in these courses was not easy and it delayed my graduation by about another year. I certainly don't regret it because they were some of the most enjoyable courses I've taken and I've been able to apply some concepts in my current work, particularly from urban planning and law. Taking outside courses isn't for everyone, but it should be encouraged. UCLA offers "Technical Breadth" electives where engineering students takes courses from outside their major. They're limited to other engineering disciplines, however. 

    That being said, I'm not sure exactly how much these additional courses will help me along in my career but I'd definitely love to revisit this topic in the future.

    ------------------------------
    Paul Lee EIT, A.M.ASCE
    Civil Engineering Associate
    Los Angeles Dept. of Water and Power
    Los Angeles CA
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Integration of Disciplines in Engineering Education

    Posted 08-14-2018 01:12 PM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 08-14-2018 01:12 PM
    ​I think one of the issues is the parochial department centric focus of most degree programs.  Engineering schools tend to consider engineering offerings as superior to similar courses offered through liberal arts and other disciplines.  There is no reason to believe that engineering humanities is better than a literature or philosophy course.  Taking courses in other programs exposes students to different ways of thinking.  Classes in geophysics, cartography, architecture, environmental science, computer science, law, chemistry, etc. give breadth to education, exposure to different schools of thought and improves the ability of the engineer to communicate with others who are not engineers.  While an engineering curriculum may not be able to expose every student to every related topic, it should allow appropriate substitutions and free electives to enable and encourage exposure to topics and approaches outside of engineering. 

    In my experience, understanding approaches used by other disciplines enables better communication and engineering that better meets project objectives.  If we keep our focus too narrow, we run the risk of becoming inbred and irrelevant in the larger community.  We need to do this if we ever hope to break away from the stereotypes that limit the relevance of engineers in the world, but we must teach the fundamental engineering principles and practices to produce graduate engineers who can design effectively and protect public safety.  The key is in striking the balance and setting the stage for continuous learning and growth for engineers who think beyond the minimum requirements.

    ------------------------------
    Michael Byle P.E., D.GE, F.ASCE
    Langhorne PA
    (215) 702-4113
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Integration of Disciplines in Engineering Education

    Posted 08-14-2018 01:14 PM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 08-14-2018 01:13 PM
    During the debate on the Masters Degree being the first professional degree I argued (unsuccessfully) that engineers are predisposed to being poor communicators and find safety in mathematics and science where there is only one defined answer.  Exposure to the arts is critical in being able to communicate with the world, and understand others points of view.  While others in the liberal arts world must expose their 'feelings' through discussions and debates over the meaning of things and thoughts, we as engineers too often sit on our hands and wait for something technical to discuss.  After all, exposing our feelings is taking unnecessary risk and we as engineers are practiced in the art of risk management.  

    I remain convinced if the Masters will be the first professional degree, then the Bachelor's should be Pre-Engineering, just as found in Pre-Law and Pre-Med.  We as engineers could then explore the difference between sighting a sewage treatment plant at the beach because that is the 'right place' v the public's impression of our 'right' solution.  Maybe with an appreciation of literature, art and the spoken word we could again be welcome at the City Council meetings and not be relegated to the staff table while the City Manager explains to the City Council what the engineers are really saying or thinking.  Our designs could move from utilitarian and functional to take their rightful place as appreciated elements in the fabric of our society.  Owners would welcome us at the table as we shape the world. 


    ------------------------------
    Steven Marvin P.E., M.ASCE
    President
    La Belle-Marvin Inc
    Murrieta CA
    (951) 698-9407
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Integration of Disciplines in Engineering Education

    Posted 08-14-2018 02:49 PM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 08-14-2018 02:48 PM
    Paul - A suggestion to you and others who may read this. The goal is to get the BSCE in as few years as possible because it is not just the cost of classes, but the cost of living you pay for in delaying completion of the BSCE.  Than, take the additional classes, some of which your employer may pay for, online or at a local university.  You can also take additional classes through ASCE's Continuing Education web site. Save money anyway you can.

    Brad Price, PE, Fellow, ASCE

    ------------------------------
    Bradford Price P.E., F.ASCE
    RETIRED
    Buena Vista VA
    (540)226-0180
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  • 19.  RE: Integration of Disciplines in Engineering Education

    Posted 08-14-2018 05:51 PM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 08-14-2018 05:50 PM
    ​I am not sure I agree.  I understand from a student's perspective cost of completion is a factor, but it is not the only factor.  Why get a degree if you do not get a prospect of a satisfying and valuable career? The point is to make the BSCE have value; not just to get it cheaply.  The Civil Engineering profession has evolved to have many sub specialties that all require more in depth learning than can be obtained with a basic four-year degree. However, that four year degree should provide the essential fundamentals necessary to basic non-specialty civil engineering. While it is true that specialties can be developed through practice and independent research, most individuals require more structured learning that continuing education courses cannot provide, especially if they expect to practice in a specialty early in their careers. Clearly some aspects of civil engineering may not necessarily require an advanced degree, but many do require higher learning.  Regardless of the level of degree earned, civil engineers should have an understanding of the world into which they contribute and to produce value and respect in the eyes of those paying for the services.

    ------------------------------
    Michael Byle P.E., D.GE, F.ASCE
    Langhorne PA
    (215) 702-4113
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Integration of Disciplines in Engineering Education

    Posted 08-19-2018 02:43 PM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 08-19-2018 02:42 PM
    • In line with the recommendations of the NAP document as well as the ASCE BOK2 – most recent and earlier responses indicate the necessity of including some elements of liberal arts curricula in engineering education. Those who do not agree with the recommendations have their reasons too – in particular with respect to the practicality of necessity – as viewed through the lenses of student themselves, and of the engineer as an employee.
    • Thanks to Michael Byle for lucidly explaining the danger of becoming inbred and many other interesting aspects, and to Steven Marvin for some daring but important observations and propositions. Moving forward, perhaps there needs to be an analysis many such views – leading eventually to a convergence.
    • Some specifically mentioned about the inclusion of history courses. Knowledge of history lets us get rooted to where we belong, and teaches us about the mistakes and achievements of the past – both in cautionary and inspirational contexts. And it is important, but as I have mentioned somewhere else, an engineering student should not feel overwhelmed and drowned with liberal curricula – instead should feel encouraged to get exposed with the hope that his or her education is valued and utilized in the job.
    • A course like the History of Engineering is a particular one that can certainly be inspirational – to know the prowess of many talented engineers in handling the challenges and constraints of many past engineering marvels that we all admire. One sad thing however is that we hardly know many of our scientists and engineers who dedicated their lives to make a difference of significant impact. 


    ------------------------------
    Dr. Dilip Barua, Ph.D, P.Eng, M. ASCE
    Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Website: https://widecanvas.weebly.com

    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Integration of Disciplines in Engineering Education

    Posted 08-20-2018 11:02 AM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 08-20-2018 11:01 AM
    Very nice to hear of a civil engineer who recognizes that our profession still needs to engage with the society.  Education, as you've discovered has a price - in dollars and cents and in your time. There was a time university education wasn't an assembly line. There still remain many professors (this writer included) who recall and firmly embrace true learning and scholarship as the goal. It cannot be correlated that we are educated just to perform a single job or function such as civil engineering.  You've educated yourself to be able to live fully and engage with the world around you. The knowledge you've gained in non-civil engineering courses will in many ways make you a better engineer who is more responsive and empathetic to society's broader needs. For one, you'll be just that more interesting and capable of speaking with others.

    DOP

    ------------------------------
    David Prevatt Ph.D., P.E., F.SEI, F.ASCE
    ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR
    Gainesville FL
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Integration of Disciplines in Engineering Education

    Posted 08-19-2018 12:56 AM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 08-19-2018 12:55 AM

    As a former consulting engineer and now as a university faculty, this discussion has begun to devolve into an either/or choice for some people. On one hand, there are people who argue that the humanities or arts, etc., are vital in addressing our ethics to the public and to understanding why "those who do not understand history are doomed to repeat it" (paraphrase from George Santayana). On the other hand, there are people who argue that the cost of a college education and the pressure to make it a 4-year education for the average student result in the need to cut the "extras" in favor of the technical. 

    What I read is that only a few people are arguing over how to make change within the system we have, at least until a different system can be created. As noted by others, these credits are often termed 'general education' and are designed to instill in people a well-roundedness that cannot be obtained in only technical classes. However, in many schools, including mine, in general, they are free choices. When I went to school (30+ years ago), we had to have a focus to our general education selections in at least one area of general education. We couldn't sail through only intro level classes but we had to have at least one majors, upper division class in a general-education area of our choosing. Mine was history and political science. I loved my classes in Contemporary Ideologies, and the ones in Modern China, and Modern Latin America. (oh, and nuclear history and politics). I also found my intro courses in psychology to be helpful as early in my career, my boss threw me to the wolves to explain a project to the public. That is one possibility. Rework the General Education requirement to force a student to choose a specialty and take one advanced course in that specialty. 

    Another possibility is to focus on the engineering educator. Why are the educators in engineering unable or unwilling to bring these additional concepts into class and at least expose students to them? In sustainable engineering, after Hurricane Harvey's destruction, my students had to brainstorm suggestions for rebuilding after Harvey. We looked at transportation and communications systems. We thought about healthy cities. We discussed, even briefly, environmental justice. We discussed why people respond the way they do in times of environmental disasters (which requires understanding both psychology and sociology). Even in the end, when we reached the chapter on technological innovations and the creation of the telecommuter, we were able to bring in information on how the use of technology, rather than face-to-face meetings, affect an employee's ability/interest in participating, as well as the technological requirement of having reliable high-speed internet everywhere and for every employee to have work-ready equipment at home. We discussed the implications for people of moving from mobile pollution sources (cars, buses, trains) to stationary sources to generate all that power required to transform dispersed homes into functional workspaces.

    There are options to fix this in the system we have but we have to have the support of the alumni to help rethink how students approach 'general education' to see the value in those courses and in why they should select courses that both interest them and will contribute to their person BoK. Then we need to figure out how to instill these soft-skills into the teachings of engineering in the classroom. 

    It's not an either/or choice. It is how we impart the knowledge of humanity into our new engineers. Many are hungry to make a difference in the world and they want us to challenge them with the discussions and skills to address the problems we are leaving them.



    ------------------------------
    Shirley Clark P.E., D.WRE, M.ASCE
    Professor
    Penn State Harrisburg
    Middletown PA
    (717) 948-6127
    Penn State HarrisburgProfessor
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Integration of Disciplines in Engineering Education

    Posted 08-21-2018 10:42 PM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 08-21-2018 10:41 PM
    I have been following this discussion closely and with great interest.  As a now semi-retired and formerly successful utility engineer and director, I think I know what it takes for engineers to perform and contribute for their companies and society.  If I were in charge, I'd have everyone get a liberal arts degree before taking any other specialty degrees.  But this is not what I want to focus on at all today.  There's been too much talk about this degree, this course, these teaching techniques, etc.  What an engineer needs to succeed IMHO are solid communication skills, the ability to work with stakeholders and the ability to see beyond the data.

    I've had so many young engineers working on a project come in and say:  Here is the answer.  It's clear from the data.  After reviewing their work I have to get with them and say:  Great job.  You have identified the best engineering solution.  But guess what - I never get the 5 votes I need to support or fund this solution because of this or that aspect of it. Let's get together with the team tomorrow and talk about how to make the project work.   These are the skills engineers need to succeed.  Problem solving is not just solving equations.  

    I have mentored many engineers in these skills over the years.  Maybe that's the answer.  More mentoring by engineers who have learned the hard way.

    ------------------------------
    Bevin Beaudet P.E., M.ASCE
    President/Owner
    Bevin A. Beaudet, P.E., LLC.
    West Palm Beach FL
    (561)225-1214
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Integration of Disciplines in Engineering Education

    Posted 08-22-2018 10:28 AM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 08-22-2018 10:28 AM
    ​I agree completely with Bevin regarding the need for additional skills largely attributed to liberal arts education. I am not of the opinion that this development needs to take place in the course of obtaining an education. There are many lessons learned during the course of a career that simply cannot be effectively assimilated during the early years of a career by many, if not most, engineers. I include myself in that category. An ongoing mentoring program is really the most effective manner of developing a sense of how to get things done. Different job responsibilities entail different approaches to gaining support and funding for needed projects, whether in the public domain, industrial projects, social endeavors, etc. There is always the technical details to deal with but what is essential to most projects involves many other items including gaining public acceptance, communications, budgeting, justification, and on and on.

    If we were to direct our efforts to defining an effective mentoring program guidance, I think we would accomplish more than simply requiring more coursework early in a young engineer's career, essentially before they have any experience to draw upon.

    ------------------------------
    Danny Pudenz P.E., M.ASCE
    VP, Energy Delivery
    Lincoln Electric System
    Lincoln NE
    (402) 467-7608
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: Integration of Disciplines in Engineering Education

    Posted 08-22-2018 10:29 AM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 08-22-2018 10:28 AM
    Bevin - I totally agree with you.  I try to push our students to take more liberal arts, and to push my faculty to advise them in that direction.

    Far too many engineering students want to take "vocational" types of general education courses rather than broaden their horizons.  Unfortunately, ABET has progressively weakened the requirement for true liberal arts courses.


    ------------------------------
    Charles Haas Ph.D., F.ASCE
    LD Betz Professor of Environ. Eng. & Department Head - Civil, Architectural and Environmental Eng.
    Drexel University
    Philadelphia PA
    (215) 895-2283
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Integration of Disciplines in Engineering Education

    Posted 08-23-2018 11:04 PM
    I agree with Charles that part of the problem is the weakening of liberal arts standards by ABET, which may be a result of our profession not pushing hard enough to have stronger standards in ABET. As Charles does, I also push my students to challenge themselves in those general education choices. 

    Another part of the problem are the faculty and practitioners on advisory boards who are excellent in their technical field and who have achieved competence in communicating on a specific topic to a mixed audience. They still never stray far from their comfort zone of technical information. With those as role models (and why I'm concerned about relying only on mentorship, instead of a mix of mentorship and formal education), it is not surprising that students take the easy route out. 

    Many of us have introductory courses to the profession and we do allow students to brainstorm on potential projects to show them, without the technical content, what they can achieve. It's wonderful to see the bridges or the green building plans, etc., from those classes. BUT, how many professors of those classes can put these thoughts in a social and historical context? How many professors can talk in class about social dynamics and how that affects how a given segment of the public will approach a project? Bevin noted that young engineers can find the technical solution, but not the one that can get approved. He has figured out what works in his area, likely due to a mix of education and experience. Bevin has to understand psychology and group dynamics and economics and history and politics in order to get a project approved. Why isn't that brought into these introductory classrooms? If we taught this in the first semester as part of these introductory courses, we can spark the students' interests in the non-technical topics. We can re-create what Bevin does in his firm to an extent and we should be doing it.

    Yesterday, I asked my students to first define resiliency, then sustainability, and when they stumbled, I gave them an example of our town to think about (which flooded last year). Then they had to figure out the difference between the two. Finally, I showed them ASCE policies 418 and 518. My colleagues would not have done that. They would have headed into the technical content instead of spending a class period putting it in context. That is a failing of our training programs for faculty and our expectations for faculty. They are technical experts, but their Ph.D. programs haven't required a broad-based education.

    ------------------------------
    Shirley Clark P.E., D.WRE, M.ASCE
    Professor
    Penn State Harrisburg
    Middletown PA
    (717) 948-6127
    Penn State HarrisburgProfessor
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: Integration of Disciplines in Engineering Education

    Posted 08-25-2018 01:35 PM
    Great point!  I did not know ASCE has safety policies (350 & 424) until I joined the safety committee.  These provide an excellent framework to build a classroom discussion on best practices (in a nutshell)!

    ------------------------------
    Chad Morrison P.E., M.ASCE
    Professional Engineer
    Greenville RI

    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: Integration of Disciplines in Engineering Education

    Posted 08-25-2018 02:32 PM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 08-25-2018 02:31 PM
    I really appreciated Shirley's contribution to this important discussion. She really gets it. Maybe a combination of engineering professors introducing social/historic issues and emphasizing them over time, mentorship by engineering leaders not necessarily content experts and getting ABET to require more liberal arts courses is a big part of the solution. BTW, I personally have no idea how to approach ABET. I really liked Shirley using the resiliency/sustainability question as a way to get the discussion started. Millennials seem to be interested in this issue. It will certainly impact their future work.

    ------------------------------
    Bevin Beaudet P.E., M.ASCE
    President/Owner
    Bevin A. Beaudet, P.E., LLC.
    West Palm Beach FL
    (561)225-1214
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: Integration of Disciplines in Engineering Education

    Posted 08-27-2018 11:29 AM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 08-27-2018 11:28 AM
    I think there is a common thread in this discussion that it would benefit the profession to have a broader perspective on the primarily technical role that engineers typically play.  There is a lot of discussion about expanding the engineering curriculum to include more liberal arts courses.​ Another way to incorporate important non-technical issues in engineering education is to require a contextual component to the current technical courses.  I know that when I was in school, some professors were able to bring a subject to life with case histories to explain the why as well as the how in intensely technical subjects.   Rather than separating the technical subject from the context in which it applies, perhaps the syllabus can be modified to require the context to show how it relates to psychology, anthropology, governance, etc.  This could be done without going into great depth in a way that makes technical topics relevant to related liberal arts topics and encourages students to see the value in these subjects.

    One of the challenges in all of this in the publish or perish world of higher education, is that professors get more and more technically focused for research funding.  It would be beneficial if the system could encourage more practical experience and participation in the practice by educators.  The old saying goes that those who cannot do, teach; however, they need to know what to do in order to teach others how to do it.  I am not advocating that education be entirely practice focused, but it needs to impart some understanding of practice and how engineers interact with society.

    Many organizations have found that if you want to have a safe work environment, you have to have a safety culture. In a safety culture, safety is encouraged at all levels, including personal life outside of work. This creates a basis for safety to become a fundamental value and not something that is selectively applied. Likewise, if we want to have well educated and socially involved engineers, we have to have a socially responsible interactive culture.  If it is important, it should pervade every aspect of the profession, just as safety must pervade every aspect of life to be truly internalized.

    ------------------------------
    Michael Byle P.E., D.GE, F.ASCE
    Tetra Tech Inc.,
    Langhorne PA
    (215) 702-4113
    ------------------------------



  • 30.  RE: Integration of Disciplines in Engineering Education

    Posted 08-28-2018 10:28 PM
    Edited by Tirza Austin 08-28-2018 10:28 PM
    Well said, Michael. When I look back on my engineering education (I hate to say it but it is a long look), the professors I remember most and who made the biggest impression on me were those who integrated practice issues into the technical discussion.

    ------------------------------
    Bevin Beaudet P.E., M.ASCE
    President/Owner
    Bevin A. Beaudet, P.E., LLC.
    West Palm Beach FL
    (561)225-1214
    ------------------------------