ABET Civil Engineering Program Criteria Draft

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_3. The curriculum must include topics necessary to...

  • 1.  _3. The curriculum must include topics necessary to...

    Posted 04-28-2021 03:48 PM

     

    CURRENT CRITERIA

    PROPOSED CRITERIA

    RATIONALE FOR CHANGE

    3

    The curriculum must prepare graduates to

    The curriculum must include topics necessary to

    • Addresses the EAC's directive that Program Criteria can only address curriculum topics and faculty qualifications-and cannot specify student outcomes.  The phrase "topics necessary to" was adopted from the recently approved EAC Program Criteria for Cybersecurity.


  • 2.  RE: _3. The curriculum must include topics necessary to...

    Posted 05-26-2021 12:51 PM
    So, does this mean we no longer need to keep graded assignments during the evaluation year?  Or do we not need to keep the multiple evaluation statistics we have used to measure performance for each of the criteria?

    ------------------------------
    Timothy Murphy P.E., M.ASCE
    Professor
    Trine University
    Angola IN
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: _3. The curriculum must include topics necessary to...

    Posted 05-26-2021 01:08 PM
    Professor Murphy, all these requirements for documentation and "display materials" are driven by the EAC General Criteria, not the CE Program Criteria.  Since the General Criteria do specify Student Outcomes (while the Program Criteria cannot) the documentation requirements that we all know and love are not going away.  I should note, however, that these requirements have recently been adjusted to make them somewhat less onerous.  The definitive reference in the ABET Policies and Procedures Manual (https://www.abet.org/accreditation/accreditation-criteria/accreditation-policy-and-procedure-manual-appm-2021-2022/).  The requirements for materials that programs are expected to provide are specified in section I.E.5.b.(2) 

    ------------------------------
    Stephen Ressler Ph.D., P.E., Dist.M.ASCE
    Professor Emeritus
    Bethlehem PA
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: _3. The curriculum must include topics necessary to...

    Posted 06-16-2021 06:51 PM
    I'm concerned that this wording change, combined with the additions to program criteria that follow, are starting to get too prescriptive and do not consider institutional context.  The US Air Force Academy for example has a large core curriculum/general education component of 98 semester hours, and we currently have 45 semester hours of majors coursework for the CE major.  Thankfully, all of the math and basic science requirements are fulfilled in the core curriculum, but that leaves 15 three-semester hour courses in which to meet the ABET SOs and CE program criteria.  The more prescriptive that we are here, the harder it will be to achieve this goal.

    In addition, it seems that the field of civil engineering is continually changing...the first objective from the ASCE's 2019 Civil Engineering Education Summit is "Reexamine, and potentially redefine, the domain of Civil Engineering."  In other words, as the field changes in the future, we're being held to a backward looking program criteria that's getting more specific with these changes, and must wait for that to be updated, vs giving programs the latitude to adapt and update as they see fit within a broader program criteria.

    I understand that the wording change is meant to avoid the perception of specifying student outcomes, however, it seems that we'd want to be in a "student outcome" mentality vs a "content coverage" one...and the new wording seems to point us toward the latter.  And even if students/graduates aren't mentioned specifically in this change, the student/graduate is implicit in every statement that follows, e.g. who should "apply knowledge of mathematics"...the students/graduates should.  if the outcome mentality is prohibited, what if we just said "The curriculum must include:  mathematics through differential equations, calculus based physics, chemistry and at least one additional area of natural science; probability and statistics to address uncertainty and risk relevant to civil engineering; application of engineering mechanics, materials science, and numerical methods to solve civil engineering problems; etc"

    ------------------------------
    Joel Sloan
    Colorado Springs CO
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: _3. The curriculum must include topics necessary to...

    Posted 06-18-2021 02:57 PM
    • ABET – CE Educational Required Courses

    It's been said that "Confession is good for the soul but can ruin your reputation."

    I just realized that so far, unless I missed it, no one has insisted on having a course(s)

    on the subject of "Quality." at both the BS and MS level for our Civil Engineers.

    Some quite reputable places to go for such content include, but are not limited to:

    Of course, I would be honored to work with a group of folks to get specific as to

    determining specific required & elective Quality Courses at:

    1. Undergrad Level, and,
    2. Graduate Level.

    I look for to the dialogue this suggestion will excite.

    Stay Healthy!

    Cheers,

    Bill

    [1] https://asq.org/

    [2] https://deming.org/

    [3] https://www.pmi.org/

    [4] https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=juran+institute%E2%80%99s+management+theory&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart



    ------------------------------
    William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
    Buffalo, N.Y.

    "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: _3. The curriculum must include topics necessary to...

    Posted 28 days ago
    Professor Sloan, thank you for taking the time to review and comment on the proposed criteria.  I can assure you that the Task Committee is paying a lot of attention to avoiding prescription and maximizing flexibility for programs.  A perspective that I bring to my work on the Task Committee is that every program has unique strengths and opportunities, and building on these for more diversity among CE programs in the USA and across the world will increase the vitality of our profession. In the sessions on the proposed CE program criteria at the ASCE National Civil Engineering Department Heads Conference in June, there was a lot of discussion about the appropriateness of using Blooms verbs such as  "apply", "explain", etc in the CE program criteria.  The discussion at the NCEDHC continued on this Forum, where you can find a number of comments and perspectives under topic 17.  Like you, others at both the NCEDHC and in the Forum have expressed the view that Bloom's verbs suggest outcomes and should not be included in the CE program criteria.  The Task Committee will be considering very carefully this important topic and the thoughtful perspectives brought to it, including yours.  Thanks again.

    Dave Dzombak

    ------------------------------
    David Dzombak, PhD, PE, Dist.M.ASCE
    Hamerschlag University Professor and Dept Head
    Dept of Civil and Environmental Engineering
    Carnegie Mellon University
    Pittsburgh, PA 15213
    [email protected]
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: _3. The curriculum must include topics necessary to...

    Posted 06-23-2021 08:38 PM
    A suggestion for the CEPCTF:  Perhaps a colon after "topics necessary to" >>>>>>  The curriculum must include topics necessary to[:]  might provide context that this lead-in phrase is applicable to all that follows.

    ------------------------------
    Jay Puckett P.E., F.ASCE
    Director
    University of Nebraska
    Omaha NE
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: _3. The curriculum must include topics necessary to...

    Posted 06-24-2021 12:58 PM

    The curriculum must include topics to assure that the quality requirements for engineering and the management of engineering are achieved right the first time, evert time during and concluding the planning, design, construction and operations management phases.

    Not doing so will continue to create waste, i.e., rework and scrap.

    Interdisciplinary quality management requirements will not support assertions such as
    "It was the structural engineers, not the mechanical engineers who caused the conflict."

     

    Stay Healthy!

    Cheers,

    Bill



    ------------------------------
    William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
    Buffalo, N.Y.

    "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: _3. The curriculum must include topics necessary to...

    Posted 06-27-2021 02:55 PM
    For an outside perspective of what the absence of education on systems for the management of quality in our CE's Undergrad and Graduate education programs create in the workplace:

    • Top 9 Areas A&E Firms are Losing Profit[1]

      1.Lost Opportunities 2. Cumbersome Proposal Process 3. Flawed Estimating Process

      1. Scope Creep 5. Poor Staff Utilization & Resource Scheduling
      2. Poor Project Management 7. Long Invoice Cycles and Poor Cash Flow
      3. Inefficient and Non-Integrated Systems. and
      4. Poor Time Entry Culture.
      N.B. "YES," I KNOW THE NUMBERS WENT OFF SCRIPT!
      Please just re-number so that we only have "9" in numerical order. . . thanks!


      Please review the attached report for details of each of the 9 assertions.
      Stay Healthy!
      Cheers,
      Bill

      [1]Top-9-Areas-AE-Firms-are-Losing-Profit-v3.pdf



      ------------------------------
      William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
      Buffalo, N.Y.

      "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
      ------------------------------



    1. 10.  RE: _3. The curriculum must include topics necessary to...

      Posted 30 days ago
      The management of quality is certainly critical to everything that we do, from traffic analysis and BIM modeling to the purchase of high strength bolts and placement of self-consolidating concrete.  Thank you for your suggestion that quality management be addressed more explicitly in the civil engineering curriculum.  The CEPCTC will review this suggestion, but we may choose to refer this broad topic to the next CEBOK task force for their consideration before attempting to include any components of this within the CE program criteria.

      ------------------------------
      Wayne Bergstrom Ph.D., P.E., D.GE, F.ASCE
      Principal Engineer
      Bechtel Corp
      Reston VA
      ------------------------------



    2. 11.  RE: _3. The curriculum must include topics necessary to...

      Posted 30 days ago

      Dr. Bergstrom, your picking up and responding to this suggestion is appreciated.

      As a Bechtel Corp Principal Engineer, I do find your willingness to support its delay puzzling.

      As you note, "The management of quality is certainly critical to everything that we do . . ."

      If I may suggest, ask your Bechtel CFO if they agree with delaying the only content in an engineer's formal education to directly assure that what and how work is done right the first time, every time, will continue to be delayed.

      Engineering knowledge is necessary, but not sufficient to deliver successful projects.

      Stay Healthy!

      Cheers,

      Bill

      p.s. Perhaps your group will, rather than hand it off to still another ASCE committee, engage design & construction professionals within the www.ASQ.org



      ------------------------------
      William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
      Buffalo, N.Y.

      "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
      ------------------------------



    3. 12.  RE: _3. The curriculum must include topics necessary to...

      Posted 29 days ago

      Tradition, Fables & "A Failure to Communicate."

      In this recent part of our ASCE Collaborate/ABET #3. regarding profession-critical academic curriculum upgrades I just recalled a story from my childhood.

       

                                "The Emperor's New Clothes"[1]

                                                 by Hans Christian Andersen

       

      Social Psychology upgrades our adult understanding of part of that story with the term "Pluralistic Ignorance."

      • Pluralistic ignorance[2] occurs when a person does not agree with a certain type of thinking but believes that everyone else adheres to it and as a result, follows that line of thinking even though no one believes it.

      Q. The last thing we need is to allow this criteria upgrade to be administratively delayed by just pushing it off to still one more ASCE committee. Given those who live within the real-world relying on the educated capabilities of graduates of civil engineering schools on and in their public and private sector project work, why not contribute to the discussion now regarding:

      1. The absence of quality systems and management in the undergrad and grad programs.
      2. The history of educational system long-term "Currently under study" posture by making this long-overdue revision to bring CE Education into the 21st Century now.

      N.B. NOT A WORD ABOVE IS MEANT TO ACCOMLISH ANYTHING EXCEPT THE LONG-OVERDUE CRITERIA UPGRADE OF THE INCLSUION OF QUALITY SYSTEMS & MANAGEMENT WITHIN THE CE REQUIRED COURSES FOR B.S. AND M.S. DEGREES.

      Stay Healthy!

      Cheers,

      Bill

       

       

      [1] fairy-tales-and-other-traditional-stories-035-the-emperors-new-clothes (2).pdf

      [2] https://www.simplypsychology.org/bystander-effect.html#ig



      ------------------------------
      William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
      Buffalo, N.Y.

      "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
      ------------------------------



    4. 13.  RE: _3. The curriculum must include topics necessary to...

      Posted 27 days ago

      The curriculum must include topics to assure that our emerging next wave of CEs, faced with issues of very specific safety, health & welfare challenges to our populations, are prepared to act.

      Their challenges will include, but not be limited to:

      1. Aging infrastructure above and below ground.
      2. Buildings that were not adequately inspected.
      3. The publics buildings adequately inspected with no action taken to date.
      4. Poorly coordinated communications about such matters above.
      5. A complex of administrative bodies at the local, town, county, state and federal level with, at times, conflicting "Priorities."
      1. Timely effective and efficient communication to each and all affected publics.
      2. Unclear specific requirements to protect the public while maintaining client contractual matters.
      3. Fear of consequences for doing the right thing right in a timely manner.

      I'm confident more experienced professionals can add to, and clarify the list above.

      Our students have the right to expect their education and the profession itself to arm them with

      the knowledge required for such an ever-increasing challenging work environment

      • Proposed Undergrad & Grad Courses: Forensic Engineering 401; and 601

      Thank you for reading and considering my suggestions.

      Stay Healthy!

      Cheers,

      Bill

       



      ------------------------------
      William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
      Buffalo, N.Y.

      "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
      ------------------------------



    5. 14.  RE: _3. The curriculum must include topics necessary to...

      Posted 26 days ago
      One observation.  A key overarching challenge is designing infrastructure to be adaptive and resilient in the face of likely extreme climate change over the life of the system --- that to me swamps (no pun intended) many of the other aspects you have on your list.

      ------------------------------
      Charles Haas F.ASCE
      LD Betz Professor of Environ. Eng. & Department Head - Civil, Architectural and Environmental Eng.
      Philadelphia PA
      [Phone]
      ------------------------------



    6. 15.  RE: _3. The curriculum must include topics necessary to...

      Posted 14 days ago

      Dr. Haas, I have appreciated your feedback throughout these postings.

      You noted the following in response to one of my posts:

      "One observation.  A key overarching challenge is designing infrastructure to be adaptive and resilient in the face of likely extreme climate change over the life of the system --- to such work that to me swamps (no pun intended) many of the other aspects you have on your list."

      Our processes that take the idea of an infrastructure project though planning, design, construction, and operational management involves quite a mix of varied knowledge, skill, and persistence for each and all phases of such work to meet the requirements.

      While you have clearly noted one of the phases/process, I imagine that without the "Swamp" noted the population utilizing such facilities will be subject to unnecessary levels of risk.

       

      Stay Healthy!

      Cheers,

      Bill



      ------------------------------
      William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
      Buffalo, N.Y.

      "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
      ------------------------------



    7. 16.  RE: _3. The curriculum must include topics necessary to...

      Posted 25 days ago
      There has been a lot of thoughtful commentary and discussion in this and other sections of the Forum about timely and important topics that could be included in modern civil engineering curricula.  As a reminder to all, ABET criteria - including both the general and program specific criteria (in this case civil engineering program criteria) -  focus on minimum requirements for engineering curricula.  The ABET criteria are not intended to specify a complete, standard curriculum that is implemented uniformly by all programs everywhere.  Central challenges for the Civil Engineering Program Criteria Task Committee are to identify what comprises minimum requirements and to avoid being prescriptive about the composition of a complete civil engineering curriculum and how it should be implemented.

      Dave Dzombak

      ------------------------------
      David Dzombak, PhD, PE, Dist.M.ASCE
      Hamerschlag University Professor and Dept Head
      Dept of Civil and Environmental Engineering
      Carnegie Mellon University
      Pittsburgh, PA 15213
      [email protected]
      ------------------------------



    8. 17.  RE: _3. The curriculum must include topics necessary to...

      Posted 25 days ago

      Thank you Dr. Dzombak for your re-stating of the purpose of this part of ABET's role.

      "Central challenges for the Civil Engineering Program Criteria Task Committee are:

      1. to identify what comprises minimum requirements,
      2. to avoid being prescriptive about the composition of a complete civil engineering curriculum, and,
      3. how it should be implemented."

      Past CE Education Conference Findings
      In June 1995 . . .26 years ago . . . the culmination of some 3 years or so of preparation led by Dr. Jim Yao, Texas A&M, resulted in an "ASCE Education Conference" in Denver, CO. At the end of the conference, there was a lively give and take as attendees raised questions about matters presented. There were four main gaps noted that were recommended to be included in the formal education of the next generation of civil engineers. They were knowledge and skills[1] related to:

      1. Leadership, 2. Teamwork, 3.  Communications, and, 4.  Business Knowledge.

      That information was founded on some 3 years of advance preparation involving business leaders, managers, and academics in teaching and administration.

      • To your first reminder, "to identify what comprises minimum requirements,"

      Q1. What CE curriculum improvements were made, specific to the stated recommendations some 26 years ago?

      Q2. What are the determinants for the understanding of "Minimum" in the year 2021 going forward, as compared to what it was decades ago?

      Q3. What women and men not directly connected to our CE education programs will be part of the decision makers group for the committee's recommendations?

      Stay Healthy!

      Cheers,

      Bill

      [1] Knowledge - What to do & Why; Skill - How to do & when.



      ------------------------------
      William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
      Buffalo, N.Y.

      "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
      ------------------------------



    9. 18.  RE: _3. The curriculum must include topics necessary to...

      Posted 25 days ago
      Dr. Hayden, your active engagement with the Forum is appreciated and is stimulating constructive discussion on a number of topics.  In response to the questions that you pose:
      - For Q1, the question that you pose was considered in great depth by more than 200 civil engineering department heads and invited faculty members and practitioners at the 2019 ASCE Civil Engineering Education Summit.  The report from that gathering is available at:  https://www.asce.org/education-summit
      A follow-up Summit Working Group was formed in March 2020 by the ASCE Committee on Education and charged with developing action plans based on the opportunities and needs identified at the 2019 Summit.  A draft report is under review and will be released by September.
      - For Q2, determining what constitutes "minimum" is a challenge with which the Task Committee has been grappling.  One relevant guiding principle that has been raised by some participants in committee discussions and elsewhere in the Forum is that less is better than more.
      - For Q3, I provide below the membership of the CEPC Task Committee, which your question made me realize that we did not post in the introduction to the Forum (Thread number 0).  In addition to the CEPC TC members below, as is noted in Thread 0 "The committee conducted its work in electronic forums typically with 40+ observers who offered commentary via chat and other means."  In addition to the Task Committee members listed below, Corresponding Members include 13 department chairs/academic leaders and 17 individuals with ABET Program Evaluator or Team Chair experience.  The committee has held 24 meetings to date.  In June 2021 the CEPC Task Committee was invited to lead two sessions at the ASCE Department Heads Conference, and these sessions generated a lot of discussion as well as follow-up discussion in this Forum.

      Civil Engineering Program Criteria Task Committee (appointed March 2020)

      Wayne Bergstrom (Chair)

      Bechtel

      Angela Bielefeldt

      University of Colorado Boulder

      Professor

      David Dzombak

      Carnegie Mellon University

      Professor & Department Head

      Muthusamy Krishnamurthy

      Hydro Modeling Inc

      President

      Yvette Pearson

      Rice University

      Associate Dean

      Jay Puckett

      University Of Nebraska

      Professor and Director

      Herbert Raybourn

      Walt Disney World Resort

      Manager, Environmental Permitting

      Stephen Ressler (Secretary)

      Self-employed

      Consultant

      Ellen Stevens

      Self employed

      Civil Engineer

      Kevin Sutterer

      Rose-Hulman Institute

      Professor and Head



      ------------------------------
      David Dzombak, PhD, PE, Dist.M.ASCE
      Hamerschlag University Professor and Dept Head
      Dept of Civil and Environmental Engineering
      Carnegie Mellon University
      Pittsburgh, PA 15213
      [email protected]
      ------------------------------



    10. 19.  RE: _3. The curriculum must include topics necessary to...

      Posted 25 days ago

      Again, thanks Dr. Dzombak for engaging me in dialogue about significant parameters for the betterment of civil engineers graduating into workplaces with changing expectations and ever-challenging work environs.

      A few observations of what you just provided:

      1. The Civil Engineering Program Criteria Task Committee has ten (10) persons, with only 3 women. Further, from the names only, it appears it does not include Asians. nor people of color, specifically Blacks. Finally, I wonder what the age-range is for each at this time.
      1. Three members seem to be executives in mega-size businesses.
      2. Where are the senior managing engineers within the public sector, e.g., highways, water/wastewater facilities, bridges, etc.?
      3. And, where are the COOs of mid-size engineering firms?
      4. What and how might the COOs of firms with architects, mechanical and electrical engineers who work routinely with our graduates advise your committee?
      5. What might we learn from dialogue with those companies that handle professional liability matters for our CE engineer's firms?
      • Observation:

      It seems our educational committee decision-making process would benefit greatly by opening up its meetings to those who are a direct part of the success for the work of our civil engineering grads.

      Our CE work is only a part of the system for project/program performance excellence.

      Stay Healthy!

      Cheers,

      Bill



      ------------------------------
      William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
      Buffalo, N.Y.

      "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
      ------------------------------



    11. 20.  RE: _3. The curriculum must include topics necessary to...

      Posted 25 days ago
      Dr. Hayden, the application process for service on the CEPC Task Committee involved an open solicitation to ASCE members.  The working group consists of the 10 appointed committee members and a much larger group of corresponding members involving everyone who applied and was interested in serving as a corresponding member.  The meetings have been open to all and many of the corresponding members have participated in many meetings.  The working group encompasses a spectrum of people and professional backgrounds and activities, bound together by a strong interest in civil engineering and civil engineering education.  Your conclusions about diversity on the committee developed "from the names only" are not accurate.

      I concur with your concluding statement that "our CE work is only part of the system for project/program performance excellence."  I would add, as is emphasized in the CEBOK, that undergraduate education in civil engineering is only one component of the preparation of a professional doing CE work.  Mentorship in professional practice, in whatever career direction a civil engineer chooses to practice, and continuing education are other critical components for preparation to do CE work, which has many different forms.

      ------------------------------
      David Dzombak, PhD, PE, Dist.M.ASCE
      Hamerschlag University Professor and Dept Head
      Dept of Civil and Environmental Engineering
      Carnegie Mellon University
      Pittsburgh, PA 15213
      [email protected]
      ------------------------------



    12. 21.  RE: _3. The curriculum must include topics necessary to...

      Posted 25 days ago
      To one & all:
      Please accept my sincere apology for my rookie mistake:

      "Your conclusions about diversity on the committee developed "from the names only" are not accurate."
      Bill

      ------------------------------
      William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
      Buffalo, N.Y.

      "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
      ------------------------------



    13. 22.  RE: _3. The curriculum must include topics necessary to...

      Posted 25 days ago

      Dr. Dzombak writes:

      "I would add, as is emphasized in the CEBOK, that undergraduate education in civil engineering is only one component of the preparation of a professional doing CE work.  

      Dr. Dzombak, given your statement above, as well as that of others throughout this online chat-session, an overarching question:

      1. Where is the plan that the results of this effort on required curriculum for the preparation of a professional doing CE work is to dove-tail with?

      "The only thing more stressful than making a plan is not making a plan." 

      Cheers,

      Bill



      ------------------------------
      William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
      Buffalo, N.Y.

      "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
      ------------------------------



    14. 23.  RE: _3. The curriculum must include topics necessary to...

      Posted 24 days ago

      Dr. Hayden,

      Thanks again for your contributions to this discussion.

      In responding to some of the points you've made, I think it's vital to emphasize what the CE Program Criteria Task Committee has (and has not) been charged with doing. Our principal charge is to carefully analyze the recently published ASCE Civil Engineering Body of Knowledge (3rd Edition) and determine if and how its principal tenets should be translated into accreditation criteria. Thus, in ASCE's process, the best time for asking broad questions about the knowledge, skills, and attitudes required of CE graduates is during the formulation of the CEBOK, not during the development of the CE Program Criteria. And, yes, the task committee that prepared the CEBOK 3rd Edition was constituted from a broad representation of the CE profession, based on an open call for participants.

      The CE Program Criteria Task Committee (CEPCTC) has a much more constrained mission: determine the extent to which the 21 existing outcomes of the CEBOK3 should be reflected in the CE Program Criteria. You asked about how "minimum standards" are determined. Great question! Making judgments about "minimum standards" is the principal responsibility of the CEPCTC--and the most important professional qualification for making these judgments is experience in the ABET accreditation system. Given an existing set of CEBOK outcomes, it's extremely difficult to make well-reasoned judgments about what "the curriculum must include" without some first-hand experience implementing accreditation criteria in actual evaluations of actual programs. That's why a major criterion for membership in the CEPCTC is (and always has been) accreditation experience. Our current task committee members represent well over 100 years of experience in volunteer accreditation roles--Program Evaluator, Team Chair, Commissioner, ASCE Committee on Accreditation Chair, ABET Board representative, ABET President. ASCE makes a concerted effort to achieve all forms of diversity on all of its committees--but, for the CEPCTC, these efforts are always somewhat constrained by the limited pool of CE professionals with accreditation expertise.

      On the other hand, formulation of the CEBOK does not require accreditation experience--which, again, is why the CEBOK formulation process represents the best opportunity to ask broad questions about required CE knowledge and competencies.

      You asked, "What CE curriculum improvements were made, specific to the stated recommendations some 26 years ago?" One of the most important direct consequences of the 1995 CE Education Conference was ASCE's decision to develop and publish the CE Body of Knowledge. And because ASCE also made the important decision to review and update the CEBOK systematically every 8 years, this document has continued to serve as an effective, responsive set of guidelines for defining the knowledge, skills, and attitudes expected of future CE professionals. It's worth noting that the "gaps" cited by participants in the 1995 CE Education Conference (leadership, teamwork, communications, and business knowledge) have all received substantive coverage in the CEBOK and have all been addressed in accreditation criteria since then.

      You asked, "Where is the plan that the results of this effort on required curriculum for the preparation of a professional doing CE work is to dove-tail with?" I encourage you to review the following publications, which document the plan and its implementation over the past two decades:

      • "New Accreditation Criteria for the Civil Engineering Profession: Process and Products." Proceedings of the 2005 ASEE Annual Conference, ASEE, 2005.
      • "Progress on Raising The Bar: New CE Accreditation Criteria," Proceedings of the 2006 ASEE Annual Conference, ASEE, 2006.
      • "An Aspirational Vision of Civil Engineering In 2025: The Role of Accreditation," Proceedings of the 2007 ASEE Annual Conference, 2007.
      • "Influence of the New Civil Engineering Body of Knowledge on Accreditation Criteria," Proceedings of the 2008 ASEE Annual Conference, 2008.
      • "The Civil Engineering Body of Knowledge and Accreditation Criteria: A Plan for Long-Term Management of Change," Proceedings of the 2011 ASEE Annual Conference, 2011.
      • "The Raise the Bar Initiative: Charting the Future by Understanding the Path to the Present - Accreditation Criteria," Proceedings of the 2012 ASEE Annual Conference, 2012.
      • "New Civil Engineering Program Criteria: How the Sausage is Being Made," Proceedings of the 2014 ASEE Annual Conference, ASEE, 2014.
      • "New Civil Engineering Program Criteria: The Rest of the Story," Proceedings of the 2015 ASEE Annual Conference, ASEE, 2015.
      • "Raising the Bar for Civil Engineering: Implications of the International Engineering Alliance Graduate Attribute Profiles," Proceedings of the 2016 ASEE Annual Conference, ASEE, 2016.
      • "Accreditation Insights and the Next Body of Knowledge," Proceedings of the 2016 ASEE Annual Conference, ASEE, 2016.


      ------------------------------
      Stephen Ressler Ph.D., P.E., Dist.M.ASCE
      Professor Emeritus
      Bethlehem PA
      ------------------------------



    15. 24.  RE: _3. The curriculum must include topics necessary to...

      Posted 23 days ago
      I would just add to Steve's comment --- to all who read this forum.  ABET is constantly looking for PEV (program evaluators), and ASCE strives for a 50/50 balance between academics and practitioners among the PEV pool.  For those who might be interested in becoming a PEV, here is the place to start

      I have been a PEV for four years, and have found it to be very rewarding and a way to learn more about the diversity of educational programs (I have done both civil engineering and environmental engineering programs).

      ------------------------------
      Charles Haas F.ASCE
      LD Betz Professor of Environ. Eng. & Department Head - Civil, Architectural and Environmental Eng.
      Philadelphia PA
      [email protected]
      ------------------------------



    16. 25.  RE: _3. The curriculum must include topics necessary to...

      Posted 19 days ago

      Dr. Ressler,

      Thank you for taking the time to layout the details of your response.

      This note is narrowly focused on my prior question,

      "Where is the plan that the results of this effort on required curriculum for the preparation of a professional doing CE work is to dove-tail with?"

      Your listing of documents followed your note "I encourage you to review the following publications, which document the plan and its implementation over the past two decades."

      This information, while tangent to part of my question, does not answer the question.

      This is JULY 2021.

      Going forward, what is the plan?

      "A Plan," to be communicated, its implementation tracked, and real-time revision(s) managed requires clear statements about:

      • Its Goals, Objectives, and Strategies.

      Objectives define the specific, planned outcome(s) in terms of SMART terminology.

      Strategies are the "Roadmap(s)" to achieve each objective.

      My observation after reviewing the various parts of this effort suggests that unless and until folks stop defending the rich traditions of our past, and collaborate on "A PLAN," the expected outcomes will remain "Still under study" while being handed off to yet another committee.

      Suggestion:

      Form a "Task Force" to produce one document:

      "The Plan."

      Respectfully,

      Bill

       



      ------------------------------
      William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
      Buffalo, N.Y.

      "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
      ------------------------------



    17. 26.  RE: _3. The curriculum must include topics necessary to...

      Posted 24 days ago
      Dr. Hayden-
      Diversity is not only in traditional sense, but also the types of universities offering CE Programs.  Represented are:  Research universities, military academy experience, undergraduate-focused, public, private. PEV experience as well as people who have written self-studies for their programs, and much more.  Also, the consideration of interaction of other disciplines, as you mention, I have tried to bring in my expertise in architectural engineering, construction engineering, and construction management.  Others, certainly including all the associate members attending our meeting, have been very important in our discussions.

      Beyond the minimums.   Please see:  https://engineering.unl.edu/complete-engineer/ (scroll down) for one major undertaking this is in progress.  This is becoming foundational at UNL; other universities are developing other programs.  Point being, ABET are minimums and many program far exceed those.
      jp


      ------------------------------
      Jay Puckett P.E., F.ASCE
      Director
      University of Nebraska
      Omaha NE
      ------------------------------



    18. 27.  RE: _3. The curriculum must include topics necessary to...

      Posted 24 days ago
      "... undergraduate education in civil engineering is only one component of the preparation of a professional doing CE work.  Mentorship in professional practice, in whatever career direction a civil engineer chooses to practice, and continuing education are other critical components for preparation to do CE work, which has many different forms."

      I would like to second Dave's statement which is spot on. Industry development/mentoring is hugely important and is focused on the job/business at hand.  CE UG provides a foundation.




      ------------------------------
      Jay Puckett P.E., F.ASCE
      Director
      University of Nebraska
      Omaha NE
      ------------------------------



    19. 28.  RE: _3. The curriculum must include topics necessary to...

      Posted 18 days ago

      Dr. Ressler,

      Thank you for taking the time to layout the details of your response.

      This note is narrowly focused on my prior question,

      "Where is the plan that the results of this effort on required curriculum for the preparation of a professional doing CE work is to dove-tail with?"

      Your listing of documents followed your note "I encourage you to review the following publications, which document the plan and its implementation over the past two decades."

      This information, while tangent to part of my question, does not answer the question.

      This is JULY 2021.

      Going forward, what is the plan?

      "A Plan," to be communicated, its implementation tracked, and real-time revision(s) managed requires clear statements about:

      • Its Goals, Objectives, and Strategies.

      Objectives define the specific, planned outcome(s) in terms of SMART terminology.

      Strategies are the "Roadmap(s)" to achieve each objective.

      My observation after reviewing the various parts of this effort suggests that unless and until folks stop defending the rich traditions of our past, and collaborate on "A PLAN," the expected outcomes will remain "Still under study" while being handed off to yet another committee.

      Suggestion:

      Form a "Task Force" to produce one document:

      "The Plan."

      Respectfully,

      Bill

       



      ------------------------------
      William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
      Buffalo, N.Y.

      "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
      ------------------------------



    20. 29.  RE: _3. The curriculum must include topics necessary to...

      Posted 16 days ago

       

      • Hayden Post: "Civil Engineering Program Criteria Task Committee has ten (10) persons, with only 3 women."

       

      • Response: "the application process for service on the CEPC Task Committee involved an open solicitation to ASCE members."

       

      Given an open solicitation was made to all ASCE members, I wonder if anyone focused on the surprising under-representation of our women educator members?

       

      Now while I do not factually know the answer, I do wonder if it might be due to the apparent

      unwillingness of ASCE education system leaders, and others at the top of the ASCE hierarchy to respond O U T L O U D & frequently until a now somewhat dated NAS report's findings are unambiguously resolved.

       

      "Sexual Harassment of Women: Climate, Culture, and Consequences in Academic Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine (2018)"

      https://www.nap.edu/download/24994#

       

      Speak truth to power.

      Our education system is perfectly designed to continue to deliver the results it has been giving.

       

      Stay Healthy!

      Cheers,                                    

      Bill



      ------------------------------
      William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
      Buffalo, N.Y.

      "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
      ------------------------------



    21. 30.  RE: _3. The curriculum must include topics necessary to...

      Posted 11 days ago
      Many years ago an older experienced CE taught me:
      "It's the squeaky wheel that gets the oil first!"

      "As discussed in the previous chapter, people issues and skills are neglected in the education curriculum of a technical professional.
       A flood of people issues may overwhelm a technical professional, who aspires to be a PM someday."

       -Meredith, Safer & Mantel, "Project Management: A Strategic Managerial Approach" [1],

               John Wiley & Sons, Inc., 10th edition, 2018

       Stay Healthy!
      Cheers,
      Bill



      ------------------------------
      William M. Hayden Jr., Ph.D., P.E., CMQ/OE, F.ASCE
      Buffalo, N.Y.

      "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot 1819 - 1880
      ------------------------------