Horizontal/Subsurface Infrastructure & Transportation

Horizontal/Subsurface Infrastructure & Transportation

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  • 1.  Education is an Investment

    Posted 07-20-2017 11:46 AM
      |   view attached
    ​Education is an investment in our future.  Yes, education costs time and money, but the return on investment is significantly more than the initial investment.  As engineers we are obligated to educate ourselves to protect the health, safety and welfare of the public (CANON 1 - ASCE Code of Ethics) and continue our professional development throughout our careers (CANON 7 - ASCE Code of Ethics).
    Please see the attachment from the US Census Bureau that shows just the monetary value of an advanced education.

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    David Peterson P.E., F.ASCE
    Senior Manager, Structures
    Raleigh NC
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    Attachment(s)

    pdf
    Education Pays Off_2011.pdf   74 KB 1 version


  • 2.  RE: Education is an Investment

    Posted 07-20-2017 03:26 PM
    Edited by Chad Morrison 07-20-2017 03:58 PM
    The salaries that offer a return on investment (the ability to pay back loans) and afford the cost of living often require 10 years experience.  Having an advanced degree gets you in the door these days.  What value remains in the Bachelor degree?  Do employers value education over relevant years of professional practice?

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    Chad Morrison P.E., M.ASCE
    Professional Engineer
    Greenville RI
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    Original Message


  • 3.  RE: Education is an Investment

    Posted 07-21-2017 05:00 PM
    Hi Chad.
    You raise an interesting issue.

    The answer is...."It depends."

    For example, in many job ads a few years ago for "Project Managers," it would state,
    "PMP desired."

    Today, it is more normal to see "PMP Required."

    When employers have few openings and many applicants, they will initially sort out the
    applications using what appears to be those with not only relevant experience, but also
    accepted indicators of professional development.

    When one views the long-term view of educational requirements for engineers versus accountants and
    medical professionals, it becomes apparent engineering educational requirements have been reduced or stagnant while other fields have increased their base requirements.

    Just an observation.

    Cheers.







    ------------------------------
    William Hayden Ph.D., P.E., CP, F.ASCE
    Management Quality By Design, Inc.
    Amherst NY
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    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: Education is an Investment

    Posted 07-26-2017 02:52 PM
    Edited by Chad Morrison 07-31-2017 08:40 AM
    William, you seem to indicate that civil engineering education has not kept up with financial and medical professions.

    I will tell you about my friend who is a brilliant medical doctor.  He spent requisite number of years in school to become a doctor (many years).  He went to school away from home because that was where was accepted.  He spent one year working at a nursing home while he was on the waiting list to get into school.  He is now 33 years old, practicing as an associate (entry-level).  The owner of the practice ignores his contract renewal, but wants to know when he will buy in.  He lives with his parents and pays more on loans than the average mortgage (higher interest rates).  He is successful and has nothing to show for it.  He will continue to be successful and grow in his professional.  In the meantime, life goes on and professional and personal growth gets stifled.  Millennials get a stuck with a stigma of being immature.  Homeownership becomes a fantasy for many.  This path is considered normal, but aspirations of young professionals who yearn to be independent, start a family, and contribute to the practice in a meaningful way are out of reach.

    I will tell you about my wife's friends who are teachers and administrators.  All with master's degrees, who struggle to find districts (public, charter, private) who pay well.  And districts that allow teachers to apply what they learned in school without such intensive oversight.

    The flexibility of degrees, disciplines, and career opportunities is an advantage to engineers.  Blanket statements about advanced degrees pigeon hole students who may thrive in practice, but not in the classroom.  Advanced degrees are not a guaranteed payday.  If they are, many of my friends are still waiting.

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    Chad Morrison P.E., M.ASCE
    Professional Engineer
    Greenville RI
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    Original Message


  • 5.  RE: Education is an Investment

    Posted 07-26-2017 02:52 PM
    ​When I am looking to hire, I look for both.  What matters is the quality of the education and the quality of the experience.  While I appreciate candidates with experience in the work I need done, I look for individuals with an a sound technical basis and an understanding of how to apply it.  When I read that someone has 10 years of experience, I always look to see if the individual had progressive experience that built upon prior experience, or whether the individual worked by rote and essentially had 1 year of experience 10 times.  Learning is a lifelong thing.  Times change, technology changes and we all need to keep up and build on what we have learned.  If we don't, we are falling behind.

    Regarding education, I look less at the degrees than I do at the understanding that one gains from them.  Some people can play the academic system for grades without retaining a deep understanding of the material covered in their courses.  Having the degrees might get your resume to my desk, but candidates who don't understand what they have learned don't make it past the phone screening.

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    Michael Byle P.E., D.GE, F.ASCE
    Tetra Tech Inc.,
    Langhorne PA
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    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: Education is an Investment

    Posted 07-21-2017 05:00 PM
    ​To the extent that education feeds the quest for knowledge, learning, and understanding that ultimately develops our wisdom and judgment, it must be profoundly good.  There is more than one way to accomplish such a thing.  Abe Lincoln had about 4 years of formal education, but looking to the left in the Lincoln Memorial to read the Gettysburg Address, then turning right to read his Second Inaugural Address will let you know that he was profoundly educated and wise.

    An example like Abe Lincoln is why I personally value proven success in actual experience as the most valuable measure of the quality of someone's background.  However, formal credentials are also important.  They provide an assurance of many background basics that are helpful to success and that provide valuable indicators of what might be a combination of the right stuff. 

    If you are from the wrong side of the tracks like me, the value of a bachelors degree in civil engineering goes far beyond its monetary cost or reward.  It gave me a rock of mental discipline to stand upon.  And I didn't mind too much paying my school loans off well into my 30's for such lifelong (mostly intangible) value. My masters degree gave me some worthwhile finishing school with its requirement for constant writing and speaking...and it assured my youthful ego of what I did not miss out on by getting an advanced degree.

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    Edward "Esco" Bell P.E., M.ASCE
    Public Works Director
    Mount Vernon, WA
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    Original Message


  • 7.  RE: Education is an Investment

    Posted 07-26-2017 02:51 PM
    Hi David.
    Thanks for the chart.
    Any chance it has backup information to segregate out the specific fields of study for the degree-levels noted,
    i.e., engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc.

    Thanks.
    Cheers.

    ------------------------------
    William Hayden Ph.D., P.E., CP, F.ASCE
    Management Quality By Design, Inc.
    Amherst NY
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: Education is an Investment

    Posted 07-28-2017 03:05 PM
    ​The short answer is yes.  Please see web link below:
    American Community Survey (ACS)

    However, finding exactly what you want on this site is quite time consuming.......

    ------------------------------
    David Peterson P.E., F.ASCE
    Senior Manager, Structures
    Raleigh NC
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    Original Message


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